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Good luck Murielle as it seems the only way to be in any way sure or not.I actually did not think about having our children do the test. I knew that it would be important for my husband and I. This is a great suggestion from Annie and your team. Thank you for the suggestion.
It would be best you have any of your children do tests which makes it easier too.
Annie
What you now need to do is, compare all your 'known' matches with both yours & their shared' matches & whittle them down.Thank you so much Annie
This can be done by using these (both are very helpful)...
https://www.danaleeds.com/the-leeds-method/
&
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4
which should help in identifying whether your F-i-L was definitely descended from the Murray line or not & as more people test, it may lead you to the 'biological' father who may/may not be a Murray.
Annie
I wrote down the two sites and plan to start using them very soon. Wish me Luck!!! Murielle,
Which company did your husband test with?
There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites?
Have any of your children taken a DNA test?
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This should help in filtering the paternal side.
What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches?
I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.
It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free!
Annie
I believe that I verified that it was Robert Murray Campbell that was married to Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale.Thank you Monica.
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
MonicaMurielle,
Which company did your husband test with? Ancestry DNA
There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites? I have uploaded our Ancestry DNA raw data with My Heritage, and Gedmatch.com
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This should help in filtering the paternal side.
What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches? My husband's scottish closest matches are 1. Dianne Veach (known to us). She has done her Ancestry DNA. Results 196 cm - 4 segments on the Campbell line. She is a 3rd cousin to my husband John Murray Campbell. She does not know John Murray Snr. 2. Maurice Campbell Results 120 cm 2% Shared DNA. He is 2nd-3rd cousin on the Campbell line. 3. Gord McMurran 98 cm in 4 segments. According to Ancestry he is 2nd cousin once removed to my husband on the Campbell line. Gord's mother was a Campbell. 4. Sandy Goodsite58 Results 47 cm 4th-6th cousin less than 1% shared DNA with my husband. Any more would be all distant cousins.
I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.
It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free! I agree but I want to make sure that the certificate I purchase are indeed related to us.
Annie
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
Ruth
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Determined not to be the right John Murray.
MonicaDetermined not to be the right John Murray.
A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out. There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer. This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time. He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for? Thank you anyone for the help.
This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).
No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:
John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland
Address:118 Baker St, Stirling
Monica
Is this the couple you refer to?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
birth registered 1898 St Ninians
ANNIE MELVILLE CAMPBELL
birth registered 1898 Falkirk
This John Campbell Murray was determined not to be the right person.
Colin
What do you mean "OP"? I live in Canada and I am not familiar.The more I read this thread and all the other threads about Robert Campbell Murray the more muddled and confused I get.
You seem to be picking John Murrays at random and trying to make them fit.
I agree on that but the problem is, the OP has the same access to any records as we have i.e. why not look at the records to prove/disprove any theories
Annie
The more I read this thread and all the other threads about Robert Campbell Murray the more muddled and confused I get.Sorry we have to disregard this John Murray who died in 1980. Should we delete the post that no longer fit who we are looking for?
You seem to be picking John Murrays at random and trying to make them fit.
I believe that you wish to ascertain the identity of the father of Robert Murray Campbell, illegitimate son of Annie Melville Campbell, who was born on 21 December 1921 in Stirling?
Robert had an illegitimate (half-?)brother, John Murray, born 17 July 1925 in Stirling to Annie Melville Campbell. On this occasion John Murray signed as the child's father. The father of an illegitimate child can only be named on the birth certificate if the father accompanies the mother to the registrar's when she goes to register the birth, and signs the register at the same time as she does. The birth is then indexed under both surnames. Therefore there is no doubt that John Murray acknowledged himself to be the father of John born 1925.
In 1931 Annie Melville Campbell marries John William Buchanan Wilson. He dies in Larbert in 1949, aged 53.QuoteThe Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the face of it, this is the marriage of the parents of Robert Campbell Murray and John Murray, but that can't be the case because as far as we know Annie Melville Campbell was by then Mrs John William Buchan Wilson.
According to FreeBMD there is no record of the marriage of either a John Murray, or an Annie Melville Campbell in Fylde in 1944. However Robert M Campbell married Catherine I Lonsdale in Fylde in 1944.
So the above transcription of the marriage certificate is incorrect and therefore irrelevant.
If Robert did not name John Murray as his father when he got married, in spite of the fact that John Murray was the father of Robert's (half-?) brother John, born 1925, this must call into question why not. Did Robert really not know the name of John born 1925's father, when John born 1925 did know who his father was? Or did he know that he was not the full brother of John born 1925? In which case his father was not John Murray at all, which would be why he didn't name him on his marriage certificate.
The correct information is Robert Murray Campbell and Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale married on Aug 12, 1944. They were my father-in-law and mother-in-law so I know this to be correct. Annie Melville Campbell did have the two sons with John Murray Snr. (Robert Murray Campbell b) Dec 24, 1921 and John Murray Jnr. (b. July 17, 1925) both were born at 66 Cowane Street, Stirling, Scotland. The two boys knew each other when they were young. They were in an orphanage we believe to be Whinmwell home for children, Bridge Street, Stirling, Scotland.QuoteI have one person to verify before I go look up the Marine Return. This person was about the age of John Murray. I am in the process of gathering information on this new person. So I should have more details to share later today. This John Murray was known to Mr. John William Buchan Wilson the wife of Annie Murray Campbell.Can you clarify this please? How do you know that 'this person', whoever he was, was known to John William Buchan Wilson? No, we don't know who if John William Buchan Wilson knew John Murray Snr. but he certainly knew John Murray Jr. and Robert Murray Campbell since the boys stayed at the home of Annie Melville Campbell, their mother and John William Buchan Wilson after they married Oct 31, 1931.
(I assume you mean 'the husband of Annie Melville Campbell' rather that 'the wife of Annie Murray Campbell')QuoteJohn Murray was born 7 July 1898 in Saint Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland and died in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand according to a relative .... To our knowledge John Murray was an engineer. He was a seaman in the UK merchant service and he may have died at sea.He can't have died at Waitakere and at sea.
Why does the relative think he is the John Murray who died at Waitakere, and where does the information come from that says he was a seaman and may have died at sea?
According to the official New Zealand deaths index none of the seven John Murrays who died in New Zealand in 1980 was born in 1898, let alone on 7 July 1898; and none has the middle name Campbell. There is one death of a John Campbell Murray in New Zealand, born 3 January 1914, died 1972. So it looks as if (yet again) Ancestry is providing disinformation.
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
Monica
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
RuthMy husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921. His records are going to be available. Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.
The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.
However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.
Annie
I was checking out Ancestry and came across John George Murray re UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, Death, Burial, Cemetery and obituaries. He was born in Dundee city, Scotland and died at sea on 8 Sept 1944.
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Would anyone be able to confirm if this gentleman is our John Murray Sr.?
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
Monica
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
Ruth
My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921. His records are going to be available. Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.
The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.
However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.
Annie
