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Messages - Richard A Smith

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1
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Word in a 1640 baptism entry
« on: Monday 11 October 21 14:25 BST (UK)  »
Could you please answer the query raised in reply #2 by GR2?

What is found after the father's surname on the other entries on the page?

I already have:

None of his other children's baptisms that I've seen have a similar word there, but there is a word there on Ursula's burial record (attached) which fairly clearly reads Cler with an overline denoting an abbreviation.

An unrelated child on the same page has 'gent' written after the father's name, but I can't see anything that looks like this word.

2
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Word in a 1640 baptism entry
« on: Monday 11 October 21 13:30 BST (UK)  »
It's either three or four letters.

The first is long-s.  The last is e.

It could be she.  I think this is most likely.

I'm not sure the first letter is a long-s.  If you compare it with the name Ursula in the next line, it looks much more like the l than the s.  Even if it is an s, it's hard to see how the word could be she – t doesn't make sense in that position, and an h would normally have a descender in this period, which this word does not have.

I also don't think an abbreviation of senior is all that likely, and not just because I don't think the first letter is an s.  It would be normal only to differentiate when there was another adult of the same name.  There was a younger Francis, but he was no more than 15 years old – probably quite a lot younger, as I have a theory that the child baptised in 1627 died young and there was a later child of the same name.  But the more serious problem is that I've not found the words senior and junior to be not at all common at this time in England – the more usual term would be the elder.

The father, Francis Stedman, was the vicar of the parish, and even if he was often absent (as many priests were), his name will have been familiar to the clerk who wrote up the register.  So I don't think it can be the case that this word is actually part of the surname.  A qualification or occupation seems most likely.  None of his other children's baptisms that I've seen have a similar word there, but there is a word there on Ursula's burial record (attached) which fairly clearly reads Cler with an overline denoting an abbreviation.  This word clericus was commonly used in Latin at this time to mean a priest, and the entry is partly in Latin. 

My best guess is that the word in the baptism entry also says cler with the loop before the l being a vestigial c.  But I admit it's not at all clear, and I cannot see anything that looks similar elsewhere in the register.  I'm not too concerned that it is written very differently to the cler in the burial entry – that was 31 years later and is fairly clearly written in a different hand.

3
quie is now normally spelt quey.

The OED says it's now a Scottish, English regional (north midlands and northern), and Irish English (northern) word.  It defines it as: a young cow, esp. (formerly always) before it has had a calf; a heifer.

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Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Will of Leonard Scatchard, 1612
« on: Sunday 10 October 21 23:58 BST (UK)  »
Regarding the word before "and sicklie", if it wasn't for the fact that the word is not recognisable, I don't think there would be any doubt about any of the letters in the word, which are clear and exactly like other nearly letters.  I don't think the final letter is a 'd', even though that would make more sense. Nor do I think the first letter is a 'Q'.  I'm sure the word must say Ceasie.  It's not a word I've ever seen before but I can only assume it means 'seized up'.

5
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Word in a 1640 baptism entry
« on: Sunday 10 October 21 23:37 BST (UK)  »
The attached entry from a baptism register in Herefordshire, from 1640, reads:

Fabian the sone of Francis stedman [–]
& ursula his wife was bapt 7o die dicembris

My question is what the last word is on the first line.  Their surname is definitely Stedman or Steadman so it's not part of that.  Can anyone help?  I have an idea but I worry I'm reading what I want to see, so I won't say until others have had a look.

6
Cambridgeshire / Re: Court records, circa 1871
« on: Wednesday 03 February 21 20:31 GMT (UK)  »
Criminal registers for that period are available on Ancestry.  Using location as Cambridgeshire 1867-1871 does not show any entry for that name but there are 15 entries where initial were J S - Smith mainly but also other surnames beginning with S

Possibly not tried in Cambridge

Oh, I didn't know it was possible to do a wildcard search in Ancestry to find people with the initials JS. That's very useful to know.  Thank you.

I've just done a search of the criminal registers on Ancestry for Cambridgeshire, 1867–71, and got 18 hits, none with a German-looking name.  However they all seem to be records from the quarter sessions.  I can't see anything from either the assizes or the petty sessions.  I imagine cases at the assizes were rare enough that they're unlikely to be relevant here, but what about the petty sessions?  I assume justices of the peace had the power to imprison someone, as magistrates do today.  Are there likely to be any surviving records for the petty sessions?

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Cambridgeshire / Court records, circa 1871
« on: Wednesday 03 February 21 15:29 GMT (UK)  »
The 1871 census lists a man with the initials JS – full name not given – in the County Gaol in Cambridge, which was where the Shire Hall now is.  JS was a 26-year-old tailor and born in Berlin.  I think there's an outside possibility that this might be my great great grandfather, John (or presumably Johann) Scheu and would like to find out a bit more about this JS.  Can anyone suggest how I might do this?  Would JS necessarily have been tried at the local quarter sessions or assizes?  Or is it possible he just spent a night in the cells for drunkenness of vagrancy without being formally charged?

8
I see that it says on both Knightroots and Family Search that Alicia Roberts was married at St Marys Church, Southampton, rather than St Michaels.

Sorry, you're quite right.  And that is what I have in my tree – I wasn't being careful enough when I typed that message yesterday.

It also says both of this Parish, so presumably Alicia was working/living in Southampton with ? Roberts until his death, at the time of her marriage.

Yes, I would assume so too.  I did look for burials in Southampton for men in the 15 to 35 age range with the surname Roberts in the mid 1820s, but found no great matches.  There's a Rev E F Roberts, aged 38, in the St Mary's Extra parish register, but he strikes me as the wrong social class and also too old.  And there's a John Roberts buried at St Mary's on 15 May 1828, aged 26, but that's less than two months before her remarriage which seems indecently rapid.

Found Burials for both a Thomas and Joseph Munday at Fawley Church. Thomas buried 16/1/1858 aged 66 years, which if correct would mean born about 1792 ( there is a baptism Fawley Church for a Thomas Monday 17/4/1791, so this could be him-parents, William and Mary.  Joseph buried 3/3/1843, aged 49 years, so born about 1794. That fits nicely with them possibly being brothers. 1792 and 1794. It says for Joseph that he died in the New Forest Union Workhouse.

Yes, I'm fairly certain Thomas is the son of William and Mary.  Joseph's age on the 1843 burial does not match the age on the 1841 census (40, meaning 40 to 44), but i think it is quite probably 'my' Joseph despite this.   To complicate matters further, there are two Joseph Mundays of similar ages.  The other one was buried 15 Mar 1873 aged 79, and family wills make it clear that he is the son of John and Elizabeth Munday, baptised on 17 Sep 1799, even though the dates don't match up perfectly.  As you suggest, I think 'my' Joseph is quite likely another child of William and Mary, and if we trust his age on the 1841 census (40-44) over the age on the burial, he falls neatly into a seven year gap in the sequence of William and Mary's known children, though with Thomas being older than William.

9
I had a look at the Knightroots site for Hampshire, and found the following burials; Richard Scorey 26/11/1815 aged 64 years-Ashlett (this is close by Fawley) John Scorey 10/11/1818 Newtown ( I have never heard of this before, although I did live in the area for a while) Buried in Fawley. Mary Scorey 21/11/1821 Hardley-buried Fawley, widow of Richard, and Mary Scorey 18/3/1838 85 years old. Hardley. There are probably more, but I did not go any further than 1838.

Thanks.  I've got all of these four burials – they must be the two couples who first appear as parents in the baptism register – Richard and Mary, and John and Mary.  Newtown is the old name for the part of Hardley immediately by the Forest Home pub.

Couldn't find much on Alicia, so followed sister Harriett b. 1793 (her baptism says 1793) she married Thomas Munday 23/3/1818 Fawley, and on the 1841 census Alicia is living with them aged 35 years-born in 1801 she would have been 39-40, but probably rounded down to 35. There is Thomas, Harriett plus what is probably a brother, children of the marriage, and Alicia. The census has Alicia's surname as Munday, but the original was quite hard to read. Pretty sure it is her though as not too many Alicia's around. The census had Newtown Fawley at the top. Can't find her on the 1851 though, but I guess this might help a bit.

I'm sure it's them too.  Alicia's surname really was Munday – she married Joseph Munday on 7 Jul 1828 at St Michael's, Southampton.  Both children appear in the Fawley baptism register confirming they were Joseph and Alicia's children, not Thomas and Harriet's.  I think Mary (my ancestor) was their youngest child, born just too early to have a birth certificate.  Alicia was a widow when she married Joseph Munday, and her surname was Roberts at the time.  I've never found the details of the first marriage, but we know from the 1851 and 1861 censuses that Alicia (still living with Harriet, but spelt Elishshe and Elisher) was born in Fawley in about 1800, and Alicia Scorey is the only Alicia in the baptism register around this time.  Furthermore, on the 1861 census we see Harriet and Alicia ["Elisher"] Munday living together, both widowed and listed as sisters.  This could possibly mean sisters-in-law, and it does seem plausible Thomas and Joseph were brothers too, though I cannot find details of Joseph's parents, but it's simpler to take this at face value confirming they were sisters – even if they did marry brothers.

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