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Messages - lmktacwa

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1
Kent / Re: where was the Frittenden Parish Church in 1686?
« on: Wednesday 31 August 16 05:53 BST (UK)  »
Thank you so much!  gotta love nuance. I should know better than to trust familysearch.  That site makes me pull my hair out.  With all their duplicate records but with different dates and other errors that ancestry just copies over, mistakes and all.  I should have gone one step further in my google results and clicked on the wikipedia page! 

Thank you kindly!  mystery solved.
BRgds,
Lisa

2
Kent / where was the Frittenden Parish Church in 1686?
« on: Wednesday 31 August 16 04:48 BST (UK)  »
Greetings!

I have a marriage transcription from Source: "ENGLAND MARRIAGES, 1538-1973" (thru familysearch and Ancestry)

as follows:

Groom: Stephen Lott
Bride: Mary Day
Event Date: 07Apr1686
Event Place: Frittenden, Kent, England

I can't find my source right now now, but somewhere else I also found that the groom was "from Smarden" and the marriage was "by license".  Additional searches on Mary Days birthplace show probably Biddenden.

I am documenting my family history and in that work I like to put a photo of the actual parish church where my kin were married, buried, or baptized.  When I did my normal google search, I ended up with either the CoE school, or the St. Mary's church which wasn't around when my kin were married. 

If they were married in Frittenden, Kent, England in 1686... where would they have actually gotten married?

(assuming they were Church of England... Their first child was baptized in Bethersden the following year, and their next two children were baptized in Bearsted.  I assume it was the local parish churches for the CoE.)

I do notice that Bethersden/Biddenden/Smarden/Frittenden are very close to each other and I am wondering if maybe there was a central church that was used by all the villages? 

Please help!!  ???  :-[
Thank you and Kindest Regard,
Lisa

3
It took me a long time, but I did finally find Edward Thomas' cause of death.  I like to tidy things up so here is what I found so I can close out this message thread and also provide closure for anyone in the Thomas/Lott family line who comes across this message in the future.  I took a leap of faith that Edward was living in Poplar when he died, so I ordered the death certificate of Edward Thomas from Poplar.  I was lucky!

Death: from Death Certificate: Found on the River Thames, drowned, no physical marks. Buried in St. Georges Church, Gravesend, By Coroners Warrant

From everything I have read, this is a very common cause of death in and around the river Thames.  The coroner didn't seem to know how or why he drowned.  I wonder if he was drunk.  If he fell off of a ship, it probably would have been reported and part of the Coroner's report. 

I did have trouble finding him in the 1851 census.  Though I am pretty confident I found him in Poplar, with status of "Visiting". Occupation: "Calker" (assume "caulker" which relates to caulking ships to make them watertight).  Makes sense considering he grew up in Poplar.  The folks he was "visiting" were Jane Liddiard, age 49, "wife of seaman" and Rupert Chas Liddiard, age 18, "boilermaker".  William Penn's parents were living in Poplar at this time (and he is not shown as being in their home on the night of the census), so it is highly likely he was visiting Rupert the night of the census.  His father was a pilot at the time.  Though this is another weird mystery considering he was apprenticed as a Dyer. At any rate,  I can close this Edward chapter. 

On a side note of interest: I opened this message with the mystery of who the seaman in our family was who died at sea with that event having been dreamed about by his mother the night before the death. I thought it was Edward Thomas, but as we now know, he drowned on the river Thames.  However, through further research, I found our ancestor who died at sea which makes me very happy that the family story, passed down for over 150 years, is true.

here is what I found out:

24Nov1856: UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 lists William Penn Thomas (half brother to our Edward of Poplar) as being on the vessel "Director".  He was indentured to James Thomson & Co., London.  He was "bound" for 4 years.  He was 15 years old.

26Dec1859: UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 location: Eastbourne, Sussex, England: shows red line through William Penn Thomas' name with the following notation also in red pencil:

"Drowned off Beachy Head" with the date "26Dec1859".  These indenture papers show that 3 years, one month and 6 days after being apprenticed into the Merchant Navy, William Penn Thomas "Drowned at sea". His mother, Mabel Lucy Thomas is the mother who dreamed of this event the night before, which was Christmas night.

This family endured so much hardship.  I am writing my ancestral book about the Lotts and Thomas' and have been delighted that I have been able to uncover so much information.  Much thanks to the folks on this forum who take the time to care, research, respond, and rejoice in the solved mysteries.

~Lisa

4
For this time period it is unusual (but not unknown) for the groom to take his bride back to his village once the wedding is over in her village so for John to stay in Boxley it might be assumed his prospects were better there than back home.
I think you've got to that complicated point in your research where you have to 'hatch, match & despatch' people to either add them to your tree or to eliminate them. Researching possible siblings sometimes helps as names, occupations etc can sometimes help tie people together where there is doubt.
I think that one of the well known search sites now has most of the Kent parish records available for viewing or Kent Family History has cd's of transcriptions for most of Kent. These might help you join up the dots and get you further back with your tree. Personally I think this more intricate research is miles more rewarding than finding ancestors in census returns - good luck !
I agree!  I have had so much fun looking through the parish records online (cityark has been a treasure trove for my Gravesend/Milton relatives.)  Census has been good to help w/ locations and addresses, but of course, they only go back so far. 1841? or 51.. can't remember off the top of my head.   I do get depressed at the lack of online parish records.  How hard can it be to scan them? I suppose you are right about the CDs... maybe its time I purchase a few. The Boxley/Bearsted connections are not easily accessible and I've only gotten what I've gotten through the kindness of those of you who have responded to my queries. 

I have tried to be very careful and not add, willy nilly, from other people's trees.  I made that mistake at the very beginning and soon regretted it.  People can be very sloppy, and lazy on that site, so one needs to take care.

Thank you for your insight and advise and great info.

g'night!
~Lisa

5
They certainly liked names beginning with M  ::)

Don't get too carried away with the middle names being the same as the grandparents it may be coincidence and they are common names but it may be the only clue you'll get.

William and Sarah did have a son called John though (again a common name) baptised 13th April 1755 at Bearsted.

There were a lot of LOTTS baptised and buried over the years at Bearsted but only one marriage which is odd.

I just wrote a big long response and accidentally closed my window.  GRRRR...

what I was saying was that grouse has picked up that Mary Lott had a witness at her marriage to Thomas Baker named John Lott which lines up with you finding Sarah and William having a son named John.

I am going to run with the William and Sarah parentage for Mary Lott unless and until I find something solid pointing me in a different direction.  The lack of the M-kids' middle names makes it seem more than coincidental that of the only 4 kids w/ middle names, two of them match exactly - William, Sarah.

The lack of Lott marriages in Bearsted is interesting. I wonder if we'd find them over in Boxley parish instead.  There are a lot of Lotts in Hythe as well.  I have always figured that at some point, my line would end up over in Hythe, but as of yet, that has not happened.  I wonder if the Lotts moved from Hythe to Bearsted.  There are still a lot of Lotts all over England in the 1700's so I suppose I may need to go back a few hundred (or more ) years before I find a single English Lott origin.  Not that I have any fantasies about getting anything that far back.

:)  I am going to go do some ancestry updating and a few more searches!  I don't know how we would ever be able to definitively connect the dots between Mary Lott (mother of Matthew) and William & Sarah.  This may be as far back as I can get without definitive evidence of that connection.  I don't like to add people to my tree unless the evidence is bullet proof.

Cheers!
~Lisa (nee Kerby, Hall, Thomas, Lott)




6
One of the witnesses at Mary's wedding was John Lott. Also in the Boxley records there is a John Lott marrying Sarah Tomlin in 1771 and he is stated as coming from Bearsted.

Somehow I missed this posting earlier.

Thank you!  I will make a note of this for further exploration on my ancestry tree for Mary.  Perhaps John was a brother or cousin. 

Dumb question:  Why would someone living in Bearsted get married in, and have their child baptized in a neighboring city?  Is this common?  I looked up Bearsted and see an Anglican church "Holy Cross Church" which has been there since the 13th century or so.  And Boxley is a Church of England church, which I thought were very similar and interchangeable (?).  Or are they different enough that it would warrant someone traveling from Bearsted to Boxley every Sunday?  Just curious.
~L

7
I cannot see any other children baptised to Tho (Thomas) and Hanna at Bearsted but there is Henry, son of Jno (John) and Hannah in 1752. There may be a transcription error - you will have to keep an open mind about his first name.

What did Matthew call his children?  I wonder if naming patterns may help pin down his mother's parents.

I can't see a bastardy order to pay for the upkeep of Matthew.

I haven't found any wills that might help.

I had thought of the naming pattern thing, because, all 12 kids have names that start with the letter "M".  But that makes sense since Matthew married a "Mary".  (Still looking for HER maiden name which is odd, because I have so much data on her post marriage that you'd think I could figure out her maiden name!j)

I wish I could figure out how to insert my image of the bible page with their names, but here goes:

Matthew Lott born March 4th, 1772
Mary Lott born July 15th, 1773
children:
Mary Lott
Mildred Lott
Matilda Lott
Mercy Lott
Maria Lott
Martha Lott
Margaret Sarah Lott
Matthew Lott
Mabel Lucy Lott
Mark William Lott
Melicent (sic) Ann Lott
Maurice Lott

and all their birthdays are listed too, but I didn't feel like adding them at this point, since we are focused on Matthew's parentage.

BUT, now that you mention it! You may be on to something... Margaret Sarah!   Sarah is one of the mothers of a Mary Lott that you found in Bearsted! And Mark William! Husband to Sarah! WOW, I think you nailed it!!!!
:)  you are GOOD! Thank you! woo hoo!  I feel so excited I can't even express!

I would hug you if you were here right now!!  THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!



8
Presumably he's the chap baptised at Milton by Gravesend 3 Jun 1838 to William Penn Thomas and Millicent Anne (by 1841-51 William seems to be with a Mabel/Mabel Lucy).

They're in Poplar in 1851, without Edward.  HO107/1556/173/19.

Death, Mar qtr 1840 Gravesend: Milicent Ann Thomas (buried at Milton on 21 Feb 1840, aged 25)

Marriage, Dec qtr 1840 St Saviour: William Penn Thomas to Mabel Lucy Lott
Yes, thank you!  You are confirming what I have documented, so thank you!  I find that Edward's missing from the census and the fact that his father was a Pilot on the Thames makes me think that Edward may have been apprenticing on a ship.  I've started trying to look at ship registers for the census which are challenging to find.   Or he could have been with a friend  They had about 20 direct relatives in and around the area.  But I can't find him having stayed with a relative on the night of the census. 

I responded in length to the previous poster, I have more stuff in there.
Thank you so much for taking the time and energy to respond and provide information!
This website and the people on here are just fabulous!
I'm off to bed...
~Lisa

9
Who were Edwards parents  :-\

Millicent Ann Lott and William Penn Thomas. (sorry, shoulda put that in there).
I am very up to speed on the parents dates (birth, marriage(s), death, Apprenticeship papers, wills, etc.)... so it did not even occur to me to put that in there! 

This Edward has eluded me.  His father married twice.  To Edward's mother Millicent first, then after  her death, to her sister, Mabel Lucy Lott.  Mabel is my direct line 3rd great grandmother.  Interesting family (Mabel and Millicent had 13 brothers/sisters!)...   I have really sleuthed out a lot of information and feel comfortable with 85% of the family members' information.  There are just a couple that have eluded me.  Edward is one.

There is a family "tale" about a son of a relative dying at sea soon after his mother had a dream that he had done so. Since I don't know this Edward's cause of death, and with the coroner's warrant, I am hoping this is our "son lost at sea" and square that circle. 

I sure am grateful for everyone's help on this site.  I have, in less than 4 hours solved 2 BIG mysteries in my real hard to research cases.  (where parish records are not online that I can find).

I hope I can learn more about this site over time, and contribute where I can as well.  I have a HUGE amount of corroborated Thomas and Lott family history to include a Brown's Bible with names and dates, and family heirloom items that are described in Wills from 150 years ago.  Three Lott family members owned and ran (victualers) The Globe Inn @1 Milton Place, Gravesend, Kent.  (for a period spanning almost 30 years I think).  All the family heirlooms were pivotal in my being able to compare & confirm online records with the Lott family Bible (c. 1812).

I have so many interesting stories, as a matter of fact that I'm inspired to write a book.  I'm sure I'm not the first to say that and not do it though.  But we'll see.

Cheers. I work the nightshift and I am off to bed.
~Lisa

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