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Messages - ndmhine

Pages: [1] 2 3
1
Devon / Re: Dunkeswell records before 1750
« on: Friday 23 March 18 22:14 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks, but I'm not sure that's actually the case, despite what it says on genuki.

These pages:
http://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/361A/PR/1
http://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/361A/PR/1/1

suggest that they only hold baptisms from 1750 onwards. I guess we have to conclude earlier records are lost. It just seems a surprisingly late start date compared to many other similar parishes.

2
Devon / Dunkeswell records before 1750
« on: Friday 23 March 18 15:16 GMT (UK)  »
Hi,

I wonder if anyone has any insight into why the baptism records for Dunkeswell in Devon, anywhere I can find them (notably findmypast), start at 1750? It appears to have been a substantial parish considerably before that and many nearby parishes (eg Hemyock) have records going back a great deal further.

Does anyone know if any of the following are the case?
 a) Dunkeswell was doing baptisms long before this but the records are simply lost forever?
 b) Dunkeswell was doing baptisms long before this, and the records still exist but have never been transcribed?
 c) People who lived in Dunkeswell had their children baptised elsewhere until 1750?

There is some evidence of (c) in at least one family (Gill) who had children baptised in Hemyock until the start of the first register book in 1750.

This question impacts my attempts to follow a number of my lines back beyond around this date, such as William Burrough (born c1747 in Dunkeswell: many online trees assert his parents to be James Burrough and Elizabeth Rosewell. I believe them to have been Richard Burrough and Elizabeth Denner, but I can find no corresponding baptism. There are many similar puzzles as a substantial branch of my family tree comes from this approximate area.

There doesn't seem to be an OPC for Dunkeswell but I thought I'd see if anyone has any insights.

Thanks

3
With the release of Wiltshire records on ancestry.com I have had a chance to investigate this mystery of whether the Beaconsfield James Penn is the same as the Highworth one a little further.

The identity of the wife James Penn of Highworth married is clearer: it was almost definitely Mary Drew, born 1771 in Luckington, Wiltshire, to Robert and Lydia Drew, but she often seemed to go by Elizabeth instead. Perhaps she was Elizabeth Mary Drew but used Mary? Buried in Highworth by the name Mary in 1821 with age given as 50 which matches the birth.

So, we have either:

a) James Penn of Highworth marries Mary Drew, has 4 children in Highworth (Jane, Sarah, Elizabeth, Daniel) 1795-1799, then a 12 year gap and then Joseph (1811)

and in between, a different James Penn, otherwise totally unrecorded, would be responsible for the the following records:

James Penn marries Mary Trueman (unrecorded) and has 4 children in Beaconsfield (Margaret, Harriet, George, Ann) 1803-1809

Or b) they are the same people, and the couple have a 6-year association with Holloway's Farm, Beaconsfield before returning to Highworth in Wiltshire.

His daughter Margaret's association with Highway seems to come about because she has an illegitimate child by a John Bradfield, and later marries him. Perhaps Ann came to live with them in Highway, hence marrying Robert Moore, while George, Daniel and Harriet all went off to Oxfordshire.

Sarah and Joseph vanish: no death records or later census records that could be them. Really wish I could resolve this!

4
Dorset Lookup Requests / Re: Sophia KAY or KAYE, Blandford, Dorset, born around 1751
« on: Friday 27 January 17 09:55 GMT (UK)  »
Just wondering if I might bump this up in case it gets noticed by people with fresh eyes. There is an enduring mystery here as far as I'm concerned, that I wish I could solve.

Is Sophia Kay who married in Blandford in 1777 and died in 1820 aged ~69, daughter of "Colonel John Kay" the same one as born in Bermondsey to "John Kay, Wharfinger of Mill Street" and Rosa Hill who he married a year earlier and who died a few years later. Names and dates fit but locations don't.

I researched what a Wharfinger was and it was a reasonably high-status, literate profession with overall responsibility for a dock. Not inconsistent with later signing up as an army officer.

LizzieL: you summarised pretty much all I know about Sophia before her marriage there.

5
From the subject line this may may not sound likely, as they are 45 miles apart, but I have a certain amount of circumstantial evidence that a James Penn (my wife's great x5 grandfather) who married, had four children in Highworth and then disappeared is the same person who has four more children in Beaconsfield then disappears again, reappearing in Highworth.

It has become a lot clearer recently with the new ancestry Oxfordshire records. However, I'm wondering if anyone can find a smoking gun of solid evidence as it is an intriguing mystery that I have dedicated a lot of time to but cannot solve.

My entry point is Robert Moore marrying Ann Penn in Highway, Wiltshire (not Highworth!), 14 Oct 1830. Ann puts her birthplace on future census returns as either Holloway's Farm, Bucks or Beaconsfield, Bucks, (like many Victorian women she seems to get older rather more slowly than time passes: DOBs between 1810 and 1820 depending on which census!). There was a Holloway's Farm in Beaconsfield at this time. There is a baptism record for her in 1809 to James Penn and "Mary Trueman" in Beaconsfield in 1809, along with siblings Margaret (1803), Harriet (1805) and George (1806).

Margaret also gets married in Highway, Wiltshire (to John Bradfield in 1824) and puts down Beaconsfield as POB on later census returns.
Harriet gets married in North Hinksey, Berkshire, (to John Kilbee in 1828) and likewise puts Beaconsfield.
George gets married in St Clements, Oxford in (to Martha Townsend in 1826) and likewise puts down Beaconsfield.

There is no other evidence of a James Penn in Buckinghamshire at this time so I looked to see if he could be found in Wiltshire. Intriguingly a good match pops up (who many people have researched before). Born to Daniel Penn and Elizabeth in 1770, he marries Mary Drew in 1794 (confusingly she seems to have gone by the names Mary and Elizabeth - it is different in Banns and Register but I think there is just one marriage), then has children Jane (1795), Sarah (1796), Elizabeth (1798) and Daniel (1800), all with wife "Elizabeth". Then he disappears for 11 years. This gap exactly coincides with the time in Beaconsfield. Then he reappears having Joseph in 1811 (this time with "Mary").

Mary dies in 1821 (at Westrop, Highworth), and John remarries (to a widow, Hannah Trowbridge) and has another daughter (Prudence, who later marries in London).

The circumstantial evidence for these being the same James Penn is too extensive to detail in full, quite strong but based mostly on the names of children (very much overlapping between both sets of Penn children), and locations of marriages of the Highworth children overlapping with the Beaconsfield ones. For example, Daniel marries in South Hinksey, Berkshire, right near Harriet, then lives in Oxford, to which she also moves. Elizabeth marries in Broad Hinton, Wiltshire, next door to Highway. There is lots more but nothing that is really proof.

The one clue to his occupation is that long after he is dead, daughter prudence lists him as a "Butcher" when getting married. I can't think why a butcher would relocate to a town 45 miles away for 10 years then come back.

James Penn himself dies in 1828 (also at Westrop, Highworth), but sadly does not appear to have left a will or a monumental inscription.

The incomplete nature of the Wiltshire records available online for 1760-1780 means I can't rule out the possibility that there were two James Penns, or even that there was one born in Buckinghamshire. However, my gut instinct is that they are the same person - I would love to have some proof (or even stronger hints!). Give me a shout if you can think of any way of investigating further (also I can share the ancestry tree which has all this saved).

6
Dorset Lookup Requests / Re: Sophia KAY or KAYE, Blandford, Dorset, born around 1751
« on: Wednesday 07 September 16 22:00 BST (UK)  »
I found all sorts of references to the Lt Col John Kay who was in the 12th regiment of foot, but I have nothing at all to indicate that this could be the same person who was the father of Sophia.

He must have enlisted in the army around 1756 and eventually rose to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel in the 12th Regiment of Foot. He was wounded at the battle of Minden in 1759 and was commended in some way.

Wounding at Minden: https://archive.org/stream/recordoftwentyfi00canniala/recordoftwentyfi00canniala_djvu.txt
Promotion to Lieutenant: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/ViewArticle?id=BL%2F0000545%2F17680801%2F015%2F0055&browse=true
Promotion to Brevet Major: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000554%2f17801127%2f016
Promotion to Major: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000045%2f17860621%2f003
Discussion of his acquiring Glenboig: https://archive.org/stream/strathendrickits00smit/strathendrickits00smit_djvu.txt

MIDDLE GLENBOIG alias GLENBOIG CUNNINGHAME.
"... The successive proprietors of Elizabeth Adam's half were John Buchanan, her son, and Andrew Buchanan, her grandson; the latter sold it to Peter Spiers in 1792, and he almost immediately disposed of it to Lieut.-Colonel John Kay. Margaret Adam's half was, in 1723, in possession of John Adam, who, by his wife, Margaret Kay, had at least three sons : Robert, Alexander, and Andrew,
and a daughter, Helen, born in 1 728.2 They seem to have sold their share of it to William Kay; and his son, Lieut.-Colonel John Kay, was the next proprietor, and Middle Glenboig became reunited in him. In 1795 the Colonel disponed the property in favour of his nephew, Alexander Ure, merchant in Glasgow;"

I cannot find evidence of John Kay being stationed in Blandford, Dorset, in the 1770s, but there was a military camp there at the time, so it is not unlikely that if he had a daughter she might have come to know the son of local gentleman James Knight snr.




It's distinctly possible that the Fintry, Bermondsey and Blandford John Kay's are either all the same person or three different ones. Nothing to link any of them together except the names.

7
Dorset Lookup Requests / Re: Sophia KAY or KAYE, Blandford, Dorset, born around 1751
« on: Wednesday 07 September 16 01:35 BST (UK)  »
Just in case it's useful to anyone later, I did find a possible baptism, on ancestry.com, but I can't link it to the Sophia Kay in Blandford in 1777.

Sophia Kay, baptised 9 Oct 1751, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Surrey
daughter of John Kay, and Rosa Kay. John is listed as "Wharfinger, Mill Street"

John Kay and Rosa Hill seem to have been married in August 1750, at St Benet Paulīs Wharf (he is listed as being of St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey). Rose and John had another child (William) and then she died in 1760.

I cannot link any of the above to the Sophia Kay mentioned in Blandford later, but hers is the only recorded bith by that name in that year.

8
The only mention of John Kaye is in the DNB entry. I have discovered there is a biography of John Baverstock Knight that might have more detail. It is not online though, and copies only exist in a handful of libraries so I am unlikely to get to read it any time soon.

9
Thanks - good spot regarding the inconsistency in dates of Ridout's Rectorship. Not sure what to make of that but it does cast doubt on the accuracy of that biography.

The Scotland connection is certainly interesting, since literally the ONLY Sophia Kay baptisms in the period 1740-1760 listed on familysearch are both Scotland:

Sophia Kay, Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth: 27 September 1749
christening: 27 September 1749
DYSART, FIFE, SCOTLAND
father: James Kay
mother: Margaret Tod
      
Sophia Kay, Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth: 10 January 1744
christening: 10 January 1744
CAWDOR, NAIRN, SCOTLAND
father: Cha. Kay
mother: Jean Falconer

I had discounted them as a) too far away, b) not the right year and c) not the right name of the father, but perhaps I should reconsider. "James John" was used as a family name later, so perhaps the Dysart one could be her. Would need some form of corroboration, though. Not sure where to start investigating Lt Col Kay - anyone know how to investigate military officers from this period?

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