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Quote from: beckwar on Wednesday 17 March 21 14:34 GMT (UK)

Quote from: DianaCanada on Wednesday 17 March 21 12:39 GMT (UK)

There seems no doubt you are connected to the Martins, and there is always a chance that a brother or cousin fathered Charles.  There can be a wide range of how much DNA is passed down, I share 68 CM with a 3rd cousin but my brother (full) shares 169.
I am no expert on the DNA side of things, I find it confusing.  A couple of years after my test, and my brother’s, I managed to narrow my grandfather down to three brothers, and for a great grandfather, have not been able to figure out who his father was.

I have also noticed big differences in the amount of DNA i share with matches compared to what my brother shares with them. Like you say it is confusing.

Just yesterday another Martin descendant got in touch with me so that's another line I'll be able to build up a picture of and hopefully rule in or out as being my direct line.

I also noticed another DNA match yesterday and when I googled their name posts on this forum came up! One really pricked my interest as they were discussing a relative born 10th sept but in 1911 who was in the RAF, born in India and had a twin brother  which is all information that my grandfather had told his son's!! I've dropped the person a message but no reply as yet. They also have a public tree on ancestry but I don't see any Martin's in it. Her ancestors are in East Dereham, Norfolk 5 mins from where my Martin's were on the 1871 census.  So another possibility here.

Hopefully get to the bottom of it eventually. Good luck to you with your search.

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Younger brother Frederick, I only recently discovered that he married his cousin, Enid Olive Ray in Willesden 1928. Enid died in 1931. I have not managed to find out what happened to Frederick after this.

The thing that strikes me about that is that he married and his wife died not long after, as per James Douglas Wilson alias CTM.

Yes it does fit doesn't it. But if Frederic was my grandfather then I would still show as being more closely connect to Winifred's and Marjorie's grandsons than I do?

Thanks girl guide,
Yes the two census entries you've posted are for the family that I have been researching. The birth for CTM you have listed is the one I got the cert for and shows mother Eva Reynolds and father Walter Martin, Walter did die in 1906.

The siblings of CTM, I have found their marriages and descendants. I have 121 cM shared with Winifred Martin's grandson and 37 cM shared with Marjorie Martin's grandson. Older brother Alan had one daughter and she is still living! I wrote to her about the family, she was able to give some Info but her parents separated when she was only five and she lost all contact with the Martin's from that point. Younger brother Frederick, I only recently discovered that he married his cousin, Enid Olive Ray in Willesden 1928. Enid died in 1931. I have not managed to find out what happened to Frederick after this.

Enid had a brother Kenneth Charles Ray born 1902, I have not managed to trace what happened to him after the 1911 census, their father Charles Samuel Millington Ray died in 1905. Don't know what happened to their mother Amelia Ray nee Martin.

I believe the amount of DNA I share with Marjorie and Winifred's descendants would indicate they were likely to be my 3rd cousins? So my grandfather is likely to be a 1st cousin of Alan, Winifred, Marjorie, Charles & Frederick? Can someone let me know if my thinking is right.

Mckha489,
Thank you, what you say makes a lot of sense. It did cross my mind that my CTM might have taken on someone else's identity, I didn't know if that was all a bit far fetched though? If there was a simpler more normal explanation?

The ww2 record is definitely his, it's got my gran as next of kin and it mentions receiving a letter from her to notify them of CTM's death when he passed away. It has notes on the Ww1 service but I was unable to get a full Ww1 service record, I think it must have been destroyed. Nothing negative mentioned regarding Ww1 service and that's when the military medal was awarded, my dad always wondered what happened to the medal because he didn't have it, he didn't talk about it. Then the ww2 record has several naughty things, bouncing cheques, stealing petrol and car parts, using military vehicles for his personal use, he got cashiered from the RAF in the end. He told my dad all sorts of things and I don't know if any of it is true. He said he was a twin! Said he was from a Quaker family and that they had disowned him when he signed up to the war.

I haven't tried looking into James Douglas Wilson, I'll give that a go, i currently don't have the Wilson name in my tree. My CTM has to be related to the Leytonstone family because my DNA shows this but not sure how that level of shared DNA would relate me to that family? That would be useful to know, would give me a hint where to look.

I'm so frustrated by it all, I've enjoyed looking into it over the years but this latest finding has just annoyed me! Now I just want to know the truth but increasingly feels like I will be forever guessing.

I've got myself in a muddle and I'm struggling to figure it out! I would really appreciate some help.

I applied for my grandfather's military record years ago because i wanted to start tracing my Martin line back yet the family knew very little about him other than that he was in the RAF in ww2 and that his fathers name was Walter Martin (engineer) from his marriage cert to my Gran, he was apparently a bachelor when he married. When i got his RAF record it had his birthday down as 9th sept 1898 and said he'd been born in London, my uncle had thought he was born in India and come into the UK when he was around 2 years old and educated in Scotland! It also showed that he had been awarded the Military medal in WW1, the London gazette had the award noted and gave his hometown as Leytonstone. I located a family on the 1911 census with a Charles Theodore Martin in Leytonstone but mother was a widow so went back to 1901 census and found the family and the father was a Walter, Bingo! I thought, even though the census gave estimated year of birth as 1895, I know ages can often be out. I applied for the birth certificate and the D.O.B came back as 10th Sept 1895, yes a little off but I still thought I had the right family. I've been researching these Martins for years. Had my DNA done and found links to the offspring of the sisters of Charles Theodore Martin of the 1911 Leytonstone family.

I posted on here a while back about my grandfather when I came across a Charles Theodore Martin of the 1939 register with a birth date of 10th sept 1895. I thought it must be my grandfather as i couldn't see any other Charles Theodore on the register, but he was listed with an Emily Elizabeth Martin! I got their marriage cert and it showed that his fathers name was Walter, an engineer. It also showed that he was a widower! Marriage took place in 1938 and yet he married my Gran in 1941! I then started thinking he was a bigamist! Someone on here also pointed out an article in the newspaper archive from 1934 about a Charles Theodore Martin who won the military medal who had been committing crimes under various aliases! A double whammy! The newspaper article notes that he had lost his wife not long after marrying her. I went looking for the marriage to the wife that came before Emily Elizabeth. Found a marriage for a Charles Theodore Martin to an Agnes Dorothy Massey in 1922 Kent. The father's name was again Walter who was an engineer, this time listed as a bachelor. Agnes Dorothy Martin passed away in 1934 in Reading so that would be 12 years after marriage not quite what the article had suggested but then who can trust what a con man came out with!!

I then turned my attention to Emily Elizabeth to see what had happened to her, got her death cert in. She passed away in 1967 Surrey, she was listed as a widow of Charles Theodore Martin. My grandfather passed away in 1959. I got to thinking did she know he was a bigamist or had she presumed he had died in ww2 when the war finished and he didn't return to her?!

I then noticed a death of a Charles Theodore Martin in Windsor 1954, applied for this and it is the death cert for the Charles Theodore Martin who was married to Emily Elizabeth! So I have clearly been wrong, my Grandfather was not the man who married Agnes and then Emily, he was not a bigamist. But whose birth cert have i got? Whose family is the one in Leytonstone 1911 that i have been researching? I can't see any trace of another birth of a Charles Theodore from around this time, it's actually quite a rare name with the Theodore in the middle.

I have to be related to the Leytonstone family as i have DNA connections to other family members. However all this made me go back and look at the connections. I have what I believe is a 2nd cousin but they only share 37 cM with me! Another relation from the family thought to be a second cousin comes in sharing 121 cM again not very high and perhaps not enough to be a 2nd cousin?

I'm so confused by it all!