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Messages - Rossdal3

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Hi there,
I completely understand how life gets in the way.
Since I posted I have done a lot more work on my family tree only to realise the full extent of endogamy and pedigree collapse on my DNA results. 
Itís extensive, with 6 out of 8 Great Grandparent sharing the exact same families back from the 16th century. I have multiple DNA matches between 30-20 cM, who share MRCA on these lines who are 8th+ cousins.

The line Iím searching for had very small families and Ďgirledí out.  The living relatives that could prove useful refuse to test, so I donít think I have any hope of finding out much more about my maiden name.
Good luck with your search.

Regards, Jill

PM sent.
Iím really a novice with GEDmatch Iím afraid.

Hi there,
Iím interested to know what progress you might have made on this.
I have the same problem with a Ďbrick wallí on my maiden name line.
The family lived in West Yorkshire and is traceable back 500 years on most lines.
Endogamy abounds plus pedigree collapse with 6/8 Gt Grandparent lines sharing the same DNA from the mid 1500s back. The highest DNA match we have that appears to be in this line is 70 cM, with a good well research family tree. We both match with a group of 93 other DNA matches who all triangulate on the same chromosome.

Would love to hear any methodology that is helping you to solve the mystery.
Our DNA has been shared on most DNA sites.
Kind regards,

Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: In search of a 2nd Great Grandfather.
« on: Friday 20 October 23 21:05 BST (UK)  »
Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone here can talk me through how I might sort this issue out. I might be talking nonsense so apologies in advance.

I'm trying to find out who a missing 2nd Great Grandfather was. This is not the same man as my other post in the DNA section, this is a different branch, different man. I'm going to use hypothetical names here as I don't want to upset anyone who might see this.

Basically I'm descended from a woman called Mary Carson.

Hi there,
My sister and I successfully identified our ďmissingĒ Gt Gt Grandfather about 12 months ago, using our combine DNA lists. Iím happy to share our methodology with you.

Please DM me and Iíll send you my email address.

Kind regards,

Mary Carson married John Forest and they had a couple of children, however because of what was clearly a troubled relationship - I'm not certain of the parentage of any of their children.

However the marriage broke down. John Forest left and joined the army. He lied on his sign up papers and claimed he was single. We know it's the same John Forest, because he gave his mother as next of kin, with the correct address she definitely lived at.

During, or perhaps because of the break up, at least one of the children, we'll call Tom Forest was sent to Canada by a charitable organisation. As far as I can tell, Tom Forest never had children.

I've found John Forest's army papers and had them verified by an expert, who was able to look at the movements of where John Forest would have been stationed. He was definitively abroad for a long period of the 1880s, and of such a low rank that he would not have been able to return home.

After John Forest had left the family, Mary Carson claimed to still be married to John Forest. She had many more children. There birth certificates all list John Forest as the father, even though this is not possible due to the relationship having broken down and John not being in the same country when these children were conceived.

I'm descended from one of these illegitimate children, a daughter I'll call Jane Carson.

So I'm trying to find out who the actual father of Jane Carson was, by looking through my DNA matches.

The issue I have is that when I look at some of the people I match with, they list John Forest as the father in their trees. I assume because they don't have the information that I do. It was hard to find.

I imagine that it's possible that among my matches, there may very well be people with the same 2nd Great Grandfather that I have, as he could very well have fathered other children.

But how do I sort it all out, when it's sort of a mess?

Who is the William Gill Holdsworth buried in Otley 30 December 1844 age 25?

DOB circa 1819
GRO has age 24

The marriages of the children, all say father Charles Holdsworth - Farmer
Ann to Robinson Halliday 1845
Mary to John Ibbotson 1843
Harriet to James Smith 1856
Charles to Martha Elizabeth Garth 1853
William to Mary Gill 1842

My sister and I built out a tree for William Gill Holdsworth from Otley, as he made far more sense.  We think there must be some connection, but havenít been able to prove it.

This William b.1820 d.1844, is the son of William Holdsworth b. 1785, who also married a Mary Gill b. 1787. Our William Holdsworth b. 1819 still appears on the census documents with his family through to 1871, the year he died. 

I accept that William 1819 and his siblings all name Charles as their Father on their marriage certs.  I also have a half great uncle who named his Grandfather as his Father on his marriage certificate.  Both he and my Gt Grandmother were illegitimate, born 10 years apart and he was raised by his Grandfather.  Either he named him to spare the stigma, or he legitimately thought his Grandfather was his Father.  Even in this day and age this stuff happens. I have a friend who grew up thinking that her biological Mum was her older sister. She was an adult when she found out the truth.

I guess weíll be speculating on this for a long time.  One thing we do have certainty of, is that we all 3 sisters have multiple DNA matches on Ancestry, to the sisters of Mary Gill (Hannah and Martha), who married William Holdsworth 1819. We can follow the paper trail all the way through.  We have absolutely no matches to the Holdsworth side at all.  If Charles was our Biological 4th Grandfather then Iím guessing that he had changed his name at some point.

Yesterday I found a criminal record for Charles 1835, son of Charles 1801. He was charged for physically assaulting his wife and it looked like he had knocked out a front tooth and bloodied her face.  The more I find out the more I think that these were not good people 🤷‍♀️

Thanks for that newspaper clip.  I have his imprisonment court documentation and the fact that he was in partnership with Jonas substantiates this is the correct William.  This has forced me back to William 1819ís timeline, which is interesting.  The imprisonment accounts for why he married Mary Gill in September 1842, as he would only just be out of prison by then. It may have been the family shame that meant they married in Otley and then went to live in Bradford (1851 census).

The timeline then gets interesting again, because although William and Mary go on to have 5 children that I have records for, the first child Charles Henry was not born until 1849, a good 6.5 years after they got married.  It could be that he got himself into more trouble with the law perhaps.  Iím thinking they were a very dodgy family 🤣

Also a John H'worth living in Idle, b Heaton abt 1810, might be related. He's married to Alice (Murgatroyd I think)

The Holdsworth name was prolific in the 19th and 20th centuries in Yorkshire. Heaton was the area many of my relatives lived, but only my line appear to use the name Charles and Iíve never found a parish register birth for a Charles that fit.  William 1819 said on his marriage certificate that his Father was Charles a Farmer, but there are no records that actually support this, not that I can find anyway.


You've obviously done a huge amount of research and may well have seen this but a Joseph Ingram was apprehended for a 'swindle' during which he used the named Charles Henry Holdsworth. The report is from 1849 so I'm not sure how it fits with your family timeline but the mis-use of the name is interesting. The report starts at the top of column 3.

Thanks for this article. Iím not sure if or how it could fit into my family, but it and in fact that whole page of news, certainly shows how common swindling was.  Itís becoming the only thing that makes sense.


You've obviously done a huge amount of research and may well have seen this but a Joseph Ingram was apprehended for a 'swindle' during which he used the named Charles Henry Holdsworth. The report is from 1849 so I'm not sure how it fits with your family timeline but the mis-use of the name is interesting. The report starts at the top of column 3.

Thanks for this link I will check it out.  That is the one area of research Iím pretty weak in.  Iím hopeless as finding newspaper information.

Kind regards,

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