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Messages - odysseyov

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1
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Wednesday 11 December 19 19:43 GMT (UK)  »
Back online.
Grateful for all the tips - but finding MM's birth cert and her parents (which I do intend to do) won't unfortunately tell me what happened to her and where she ended her days - which is really my main focus.   I'd like to be able one day to visit her grave and lay flowers there - just to let her know that in a different era the indomitable spirit evident in some of her publicly reported actions is respected, although in the end it may have led to her undoing.
So I will keep looking for connections to the end of M's life and if this involves Foleys or Flecthers or Cooneys or Mintons - and more hours of sifting through records - so be it.   
 :) :) :)

2
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Wednesday 11 December 19 09:31 GMT (UK)  »
   

Maud Alice was laid to rest in the Presbyterian Section of Rookwood in December 1882.  To save everyone going back through this thread, it is 6B, Zone A,  4244 as per Rookwood General's website
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine

[/quote]

JM and Sparret thanks for comments.

Is it usual for the undertaker (Walker Stewart) or the cemetery to make a mistake about date of burial?   According to death Certificate Maud Alice was buried 5th December 1882 - Cemetery web-site claims Maud Minton burial as 3rd.   Of course handwritten 3 and 5 can be mistaken.   I hadn't noticed it with the other dc's but I guess it depends on the undertakers?   I think JM suggested babe was buried with an adult?   Any idea who?   
Date of Burial :
3 Dec 1882
Age : UNKNOWN
Plot : Presbyterian 6B_Zone A/#/4244

Thanks for the info re rates - it was wishful and wistful thinking that Mary and her baby were at least buried together.
It's a pity nothing matched with the 32 year old who turned out to be Anastasia.
I'm waiting to  hear from State archives about Mary O'Neil who happens to be the same age as MM; she was admitted to the Newington Hospital a couple of times and died (possibly) in St. Vincent's;  the death notices don't mention family but Mrs O'Neil seems to have had good friends - if it is all the same person.
Yes, JM musicians could make a respectable living, and brass bands were popular during mid-late Victorian era so it doesn't surprise about Hense.   Thomas also owned a house in Greymouth NZ - but was obliged to sell it to cover debts when he foolishly took on the management of Mac's Hotel as a venue for his music.   German bands are a little different to the kind of music in theatres, though.
I've finally unearthed my bundle of papers from when I began researching the family history;  back in 2004 I printed up reams of information trying to find concrete links.   Some of it is going to save me time when I put it all together and I do have an almost complete picture now with research backing up family stories and information.   I do like to be certain of the links - but Mary is still elusive.    Someone suggested it was cheaper to get a transcription service to provide certificates;  any recommendations?
I think my tablet is about to die ...  ??? 




3
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Wednesday 11 December 19 04:49 GMT (UK)  »
 :D :D :D :D :D
I've just realised - those properties for which TM was to be rated in 1889 are probably gravesites???
They cost L1.10s.0d ea.   It could just be --- or have been --- the last resting place of Mary and her poor babe ...   JM you would know - could that be it? ???

4
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Wednesday 11 December 19 04:30 GMT (UK)  »
Hi JM.   Lots of interesting sidelights there;  not sure that any of it applies.   T Minton was in NZ until 1872 and then spent a couple of years in Victoria, so would not have had much to do with Christian Hense or Dr. Bailey's marriage Mill.
Perhaps if you checked out this link:
https://sydney.edu.au/paradisec/australharmony/register-M-2.php
it would give you a clearer idea of the type of musician TM was.   I don't think Street musicians or German Bands quite fits the bill.   He was also a teacher of music;  taught for some time in Dunedin (see ads on Papers Past) so renting from music teacher Hense probably makes sense.   
I agree ETF was not charged with brothel keeping; but given the comments throughout this thread that Exeter Place was a pretty grim area, it's hard not to reach that conclusion, especially as the act under which he would have been charged is specifically aimed at controlling "infection and contagious diseases" and he could have been required to whitewash the entire area (see Hansard).  Especially as the labour value of L2 today is $1798 - not such a great amount, I imagine considering today's wages.(https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/australiacompare/relativevalue.php.
I checked out the archives you recommended but the relevant ones are not yet digitised so couldn't come up with any additional names and since I don't live in Sydney (or NSW for that matter) it's going to be a while before I can do anything more on that front.   In the interim I've checked out all of TM and MM's children.   BDM records all show name of mother and father.   And, of course, In memoriams went into the SMH for a couple of years after TM's death.   Mother's name definitely known but no-one wanted to recognise her.
As for the preponderence of Thomases - at least two surnames, Letitia's husband and the German Band - I guess with Sydney's population at around 29000 in that era and many of them crammed into the small area of the Rocks, Darlinghurst, Surrey Hills, etc, I suppose it would be hard not to have multiples.   It certainly seems like that when doing a name search on Trove.
Harking back to other valid points you've made.   The trove article that seemed to mention Letitia when I increased and cleared it became Hortensia  :-\ ;
and in case you haven't been able to find it, in 1889 TM apparently rented 2 places in Rockdale;  it appears in trove as notification of assessment  (SMH18/5/1889) Lot 1, Sec 1, and Lot 36, Sec 1, Hastings, Ellery's sub-division.
Also, The Age (Melb) 23/06/1875 TM advertised that he would not be responsible for any debts his wife might incur after that date.   Their last daughter was born 28th April, 1876 at No. 2 off Washington St, which just fits the appropriate time for M to have returned and an infant to be conceived.   No syphillis with that one but no wonder they left Melbourne.   I suspect after the third time he really meant it. :( 

5
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Tuesday 10 December 19 08:01 GMT (UK)  »
JM you are justified in interpreting it as printer - I might have done the same.   I think the mistake here was with whoever wrote out the passenger list in the first place.

6
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Tuesday 10 December 19 07:56 GMT (UK)  »
JM re E T Foley - just a few comments about syphillis -
a)  congenital syphillis depends on what stage of infection mother has reached during pregnancy cf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819963/
b)   Foetal infection is more likely during early stages but an infected mother can infect her foetus at least during first five years of infection https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/congenital-syphilis
c)   Primary stage sore appears 3 weeks after infection and primary stage usually lasts 3-6 weeks but can range from 10-90 days;  secondary stage appears 2-8 weeks after primary and if symptoms go away sufferer is said to be in Tertiary stage.   https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/tm6404
d)   Untreated syphillis during pregnancy has an almost 100% rate of transmission to the foetus and
foetal or perinatal death occurs in 40% of cases. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cripe/2012/934634/

So it's quite likely Mary was infected before not during her pregnancy although it could have occurred either way.   As for ETF, he was a gold miner;  and he fronted and took the rap for a brothel.
The suffragettes would have said he was responsible, directly or indirectly.   And the temperance ladies would have ... er ... castigated him. ;).   Until another candidate turns up, he looks like it. ;) ;) ;)

7
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Tuesday 10 December 19 07:35 GMT (UK)  »
Have since found on BDM NSW for period 7/05/1848 - 31/12/1849 births for 8 Mary Murphys   None of them have Patrick Murphy and Anne Dolan as parents.   Mary's dead child was Maud Alice;  a Maud is mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread

8
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Tuesday 10 December 19 07:26 GMT (UK)  »
JM Neither Thomas nor Benjamin were printers;  Thomas was a painter/paperhanger when he wasn't a musician;  Benjamin was a painter/paperhanger and tried goldmining;  Richard (brother) was a plumber when he wasn't an actor and William (brother) tried gold-mining and then kept a painting/paperhanging shop.   Joseph was in the merchant navy.   I have details of all their marriages except Joseph who remained a bachelor.   Richard died 1864.   They are all quite visible and traceable - except for Mary

9
Australia / Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« on: Tuesday 10 December 19 07:19 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Sue, JJ and JM,
Thank you for all the help and research time you are giving.   Here are some things that might help;
John Thomas and Letitia Murphy witnessed the marriage of Thomas and Mary Minton (at Brighton, Fox River NZ) 6/5/1867, and were married themselves November 1867 at Charleston (about 18km from Brighton).   Thomas and Mary did not witness and occupation of John Thomas is given as hotelkeeper.
The officiating minister for T/M marriage was Rev Father Emmanuel Royer.   The officiating Minister for J/L was Rev Stephen Hallum.  The No. on the Thomas/Mary Cert is 899, at BDM NZ it shows up as 1867/2999 under the name Winton - not sure why as all the "M"s look alike on the original - in fact it's very clear and if I could get my computer and camera to talk to each other I could post it  ???  The No on the J/L Cert is 880 - just took it from my pile of papers

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