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Messages - Suffolkfolk

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1
Other Countries / Re: Antigua: The Wenham Sugar Plantation c. 1760
« on: Tuesday 06 February 18 16:27 GMT (UK)  »
From  the study named below (1) , which I have only recently come across,  I have learned that the Mr Collins referred to in my previous post was in fact the Revd. Henry (Harry) Rawle Collins and his mother,who was the great granddaughter of Thomas Wenham the elder of Nevis and Antigua, was Martha Hamilton Collins (nee Baker) (1834-1918).

The study suggests that Thomas Wenham born c. 1726 was likely to have originated from Bedfordshire or Cambridgeshire.  However, it was the Sussex branch of Wenhams whose family crest depicted a greyhound on a chapeau (2) and it is for this reason that I believe that Thomas Wenham was from the Sussex line of Wenhams.   

From the chart below it is easy to see how Martha Hamilton Collins  may have come into possession of some of the Wenham silver but no so easy to determine how Thomas Wenham came by it!   

In Catherine Pullein's article mentioned in an earlier post it seems that the Revd. Harry Collins was to some degree certain that Thomas Wenham had a sister Hannah and that they were both the children of the Rev. George Wenham of Rotherfield.   I don't believe this to be true for reasons stated earlier.    I have discovered via the SFHG  website that there was a Thomas Wenham b. 1730 in Ninfield and his sister Hannah Wenham b. 1928  also in Ninfield.  Their parents were said to be Thomas Wenham and Elizabeth.  They fit the timescale mentioned by Revd. Harry Collins .  However it is not clear to me what Elizabeth's maiden name.   Without that knowledge I have hit another brick wall!

                                        Thomas Wenham/Martha Williams (nee Sanders)

                                                               Mary Williams
                                                            m. John Smith (Gent)     

Mary Susannah Wolfe Smith                                                          Martha Williams Smith
m. Henry Wilkinson Baker                                                             m. Walter Lewis Bucke                                         

Martha Hamilton Baker                                                                  Walter Henry Bucke
m. Revd. John Mackechnie  Collins

Revd. Henry (Harry ) Rawle Collins
Eleanor Linda Collins
Zoe Clara Collins

(I suggest reading the Study (1) referred to below to learn about other family connections.   It makes very interesting reading.)

Turning  now to Thomas Wenham’s son Francis Wenham for whom the Study (1) has no details I believe he had at least 2 children,  (a) Francis Herbert Wenham (1789-1841) married to Maria  Sarah Watson with whom he had 9 children including  Francis Herbert Wenham (1825-1908 ) and Horatio Wenham  (1827-1848) and  (b) Thomas Wenham (1792 – 1877), stockbroker, who married  Elizabeth MacDonald and had 3 sons and 1 daughter and also later or earlier had married  Hannah Watson with whom he had one son and one daughter.

Francis Herbert Wenham (1824, Kensington – 1908)  was a British marine engineer who studied the problem of manned flight and wrote a perceptive and influential academic paper which he presented to the first meeting of the Royal Aeronautical Society in London in 1866. Wenham's report, "Aerial Locomotion". (3)  There is a photograph of him online.

 
(1)  Source: The Mountravers Plantation Community - Part 3 Chapter 2
       Copyright: Christine Eickelmann 2016, 2017.
(2)  Source: British herald, or Cabinet of armorial bearings of the nobility & gentry” .
(3)   Source: Wikipedia"homas Wenham of Nevis and Antigua



2
Other Countries / Re: Antigua: The Wenham Sugar Plantation c. 1760
« on: Thursday 28 July 16 13:10 BST (UK)  »
For further details regarding the search by Mr Collins in 1920, as referred to above, please refer to "The Story of Some Wealden Manors" by Catherine Pullein published by Courier 1928.  The relevant passage is on page 210 headed "The Rectors and Ministers of Rotherfield".   What was omitted was that the Rev. George Wenham married first Mary Willett in Jan 1683 in Broadwater, Sussex.   They had a daughter Hannah (1687-1719) who married the Rev. George Lewis in Rotherfield in 1707, a stillborn child in 1692 and a daughter Susannah, birth date unknown but who was presumably still living in 1707 as she was mentioned in the will  dated 1707 of Elizabeth Henly of Robertsbridge.

The next recorded marriage of the Rev. George Wenham was indeed to Dorothy Baker who at the time of her marriage in 1725 was a 60 year old spinster.  But did the Rev. George Wenham perhaps have another marriage between that of Mary and Dorothy?   Maybe but then that does not fit in with the Collins believing that "their Thomas Wenham" was born c. 1726 although he could have been a grandchild of the Rev. George Wenham.   I have not found to date a will of the Rev. George Wenham that might offer up some clues.

The only Thomas Wenham that I know of that is likely to have visited the West Indies including Nevis and Antigua during the late 17c/early 18c is Colonel Sir Thomas Wenham, brother to the Rev. George Wenham, but he died in New York in 1709 and neither his will nor that of his wife Mary (nee Alford) mentions any son named Thomas.

If anyone has any theories about this that they would like to share with me I would be very grateful.

3
Other Countries / Re: Antigua: The Wenham Sugar Plantation c. 1760
« on: Friday 22 July 16 14:10 BST (UK)  »
Thomas Wenham before renting the Budgeon estate  had worked as an overseer and then assistant manager at the Mountravers  Plantation in northern Nevis.    Further details can be gleaned by reading:
 
("MOUNTRAVERS PLANTATION COMMUNITY – PART 2 CHAPTER 2 P a g e | 101 PART 2 The enslaved people Chapter 2 The absentee and his plantation, 1734 – 1761" Copyright © Christine Eickelmann 2016)

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Suffolk / Re: Richard WENHAM of Wenham Hall
« on: Tuesday 28 June 16 08:49 BST (UK)  »
I have seen 2 versions of the Visitations of Sussex.  Until recently  I had referred to the one that indicated that  John Wenham of Ninfield married Ann Needham who was the daughter of  Sir Francis Needham of Sussex.  I am now aware of the version that refers to Sir Francis Needham from Derby and this has led me to some interesting information.   Sir Francis was known to be both of Melbourne House in Derby , Derbyshire and of Barking  Hall “Barnham” and Darmsden in Suffolk as well as other districts.   Melbourne House has been the home of two prime ministers and is open to the public;  Barking Hall and Darmsden are situated  only 12/17 miles from Little Wenham in Suffolk.

Sir Francis Needham died in 1638.  There is a record  dated 1639 held in the Ipswich, Suffolk, archives  (ref: HA1/B/A/3/11) relating to a John Wenham of More Hall, Sussex, who sought to execute a judgement against Sir Francis Needham with regard to Barking and Darmsden.  As to why  I am not yet certain but possibly due to  the terms of some bequeath to his wife, nee Ann Needham, not being honoured on a timely basis.

Sir Francis Needham also had another daughter (Christian name?) who was married to Phillip Tilney of Barking Hall in Suffolk.  He was the son of Phillip Tilney of Shelley House, Shelley, Suffolk and his first wife Margaret Brewse who, in turn, was the daughter of Thomas Brewse (d. 1482) and Elizabeth Debenham of Wenham Hall, Little Wenham.  This Elizabeth Debenham was the daughter of Gilbert Debenham  and sister and heir to her brother Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham.  Wenham Hall was sacked in 1470 and lost to the Debenhams in 1487 but  returned to their possession in I think 1502 to the then nearest relative Robert Brewse and remained in the Brewse family for the next 200 years.

The Tilneys can I believe be traced back to Little Wenham.  Charles Tilney (1561-1586) of Barking Hall Suffolk  was the son I believe of Phillip Tilney and his wife who was the daughter of Sir Francis Needham as mentioned above.  Charles Tilney was executed for plotting against Queen Elizabeth 1.
 

The above does not of course explain the recording back in 1530 of the reference to a daughter of Richard Wenham marrying a Brewse with whom she shared Wenham Hall  in approx. 1470.  There are many speculative theories not least the one mentioned in a previous blog in which it was stated that perhaps we who think we descended from Wenhams may in fact have descended from Debenhams.  Who knows?

5
Suffolk / Re: Richard WENHAM of Wenham Hall
« on: Wednesday 25 April 12 12:46 BST (UK)  »
Anyone who has attempted to follow the trail of the Wenhams as shown in the Visitations of Sussex, may be interested in the following.

John Wenham (c.1694-1768) later known as Sir John Wenham of Beckenham, Kent commissioned maps of land he owned including Hamsey in Sussex.   The Wenham coat of arms, as described in the Visitations, is depicted. Source: National Archives HAMSEY SHR/2849 1752.  His father was Sir Thomas Wenham; baptized in Hailsham in 1663 and died in New York in 1709.

The John Wenham said to be 6 years old in 1634 at the time of the Visitations was the Rev. John Wenham of Hailsham who married Elizabeth Wynyard.   (A brother Richard Wenham is shown in both the Visitations of Sussex and London where he was said to be living in Farringdon Within and in the latter case his coat of arms has a star incorporated into the design to distinquish him from his brother, John, the male heir.)

The marriage settlement dd 1655 of John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard refers to John Wynyard of Westminster as being her brother.  John Wynyard the grandfather, groom to the wardrobe of Elizabeth 1st and James 1st, married Susannah Stonehouse whose 2nd husband was Sir John Stafford.  His parents, William Stafford and Dorothy Stafford, were distant cousins.   William Stafford's 1st wife was Mary Boleyn, sister of Anne Boleyn, wife of Henry V111.   (Kind of makes up for the lack of info regarding the Richard Wenham allegedly of Wenham Hall Little Wenham!) 

Elizabeth Wynyard's grandson, Lt. Gen. John Wynyard made a will in 1752.  In the event of his children's death, his estate was to go to his "kinsman, John Wenham".   I believe this to be the Sir John Wenham of Beckenham mentioned above.   

John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard had 3 known sons; John (c. 1657-1676), Rev. George Wenham of Rotherfield (c.1660-1736) and Sir Thomas Wenham (1663-1709).   George Wenham's 1st wife was Mary Willett with whom he had a daughter, Hannah.  She married the Rev. George Lewis of Rotherfield.  I believe she may be the Hannah Lewis that is referred to in documentation with regard to the Wynyard family.

If anyone has details of any documentation to which the Wenham Coat of Arms was applied I would be grateful to have details.


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Suffolk / Re: Richard WENHAM of Wenham Hall
« on: Monday 23 April 12 20:38 BST (UK)  »
Anyone who has attempted to follow the trail of the Wenhams as shown in the Visitations of Sussex, may be interested in the following.

John Wenham (c.1694-1768) later known as Sir John Wenham of Beckenham, Kent commissioned maps of land he owned including Hamsey in Sussex.   The Wenham coat of arms, as described in the Visitations, is depicted. Source: National Archives HAMSEY SHR/2849 1752.  His father was Sir Thomas Wenham; baptized in Hailsham in 1663 and died in New York in 1709.

The John Wenham said to be 6 years old in 1634 at the time of the Visitations was the Rev. John Wenham of Hailsham who married Elizabeth Wynyard.   (A brother Richard Wenham is shown in both the Visitations of Sussex and London where he was said to be living in Farringdon Within and in the latter case his coat of arms has a star incorporated into the design to distinquish him from his brother, John, the male heir.)

The marriage settlement dd 1655 of John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard refers to John Wynyard of Westminster as being her brother.  John Wynyard the grandfather, groom to the wardrobe of Elizabeth 1st and James 1st, married Susannah Stonehouse whose 2nd husband was Sir John Stafford.  His parents, William Stafford and Dorothy Stafford, were distant cousins.   William Stafford's 1st wife was Mary Boleyn, sister of Anne Boleyn, wife of Henry V111.   (Kind of makes up for the lack of info regarding the Richard Wenham allegedly of Wenham Hall Little Wenham!) 

Elizabeth Wynyard's grandson, Lt. Gen. John Wynyard made a will in 1752.  In the event of his children's death, his estate was to go to his "kinsman, John Wenham".   I believe this to be the Sir John Wenham of Beckenham mentioned above.   

John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard had 3 known sons; John (c. 1657-1676), Rev. George Wenham of Rotherfield (c.1660-1736) and Sir Thomas Wenham (1663-1709).   George Wenham's 1st wife was Mary Willett with whom he had a daughter, Hannah.  She married the Rev. George Lewis of Rotherfield.  I believe she may be the Hannah Lewis that is referred to in documentation with regard to the Wynyard family.

If anyone has details of any documentation to which the Wenham Coat of Arms was applied I would be grateful to have details.

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