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Messages - Philomel1910

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Wednesday 03 April 19 15:19 BST (UK)  »
Thank you very much Forfarian for reminding me about when the Civil registrations start in Ireland. I did try church records which of course go way back (certainly do for my other Irish family) and it returned no result at all for name or that person (Caroline Fearnside).
Thanks very much Little Nell for finding that Fearnside in Dublin. Could be related somehow to the same family.
Yes, the GRO charges for England and Wales are high - I seem to recall paying more than £7.00 for a copy of a marriage from them a few years ago now. I paid £7 for my grandfather's birth record from PRONI (Belfast) in 2000 and found the same at Ireland Genealogy page searching free in the past year. Made much progress with that family by free searching which at GRONI (Belfast) I was paying per view before I could even decide if the person might be related or not - a very expensive way to get nowhere! It's a nuisance that one cannot view full certificates listed in the BMDs for England and Wales and then order what turns out to be relevant. Otherwise, one is guessing much of the time.

I will return here after May when I hope to complete my grand project. But I am snarled up until then and I might over-run.

Thank you all for being so very helpful and digging out so much relevant material.

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Wednesday 03 April 19 12:02 BST (UK)  »
Little Nell, Thank you very much for giving the full information on this Fearnside family. I greatly appreciate it.
Heywood. I've got George Barrett Shoults born at Webb Street, the son of George Frederick Shoults (1802-1853), a carpenter, and Jemima Bicknell Shoults nee Back (1807-1857). You confirm what I have, though on the printed sheet I don't have his baptism in St John Horsleydown. 1838 was the birth year in Bermondsey that I found for George Bicknell Shoults. Somebody else on that branch of the Shoults tree. I won't be able to find out until I get a free search day at "Ancestry". Money in very short supply.

1837, Southwark, is the birth year for George Barrett Shoults. Also, my fellow-researcher, sadly long passed away, was a great grandson of George Barrett Shoults. Don's grandather on that side was Robert Walter Shoults (B. 7 Nov 1865 Finchley, D. 22 Jan 1937, Hertford, England) Don would know the name of his great grandfather. He was a most assiduous researcher and got the certificates for a great many of those on the wider tree. He is the source for a lot of my information, though I did discover some important documents myself and of course I passed that on to him.
I really do prefer not to do electronic genealogy. I believe you can only really get quality information way back by visiting archives in person. It may work out less expensive that way, depending on how near the archive.
Forfarian, thanks for clarifying the census returns at Scotlands People. However, if I want to do any significant research, I should want to have a year subscription, not piecemeal payments for this and that. I am quite poor - my resources money-wise are very limited.
Thank you for the information on these Fearnsides, Ruskie which is greatly appreciated. Thanks also for confirming that Caroline Jane Fearnside in that 1881 census was born in Dublin, Ireland. As I mentioned, I had made a search of all the Civil registrations for all Ireland and there was nothing at all. Not even an entry for that surname. I tried Fernside and Fearnside. I will try some other spellings but am not hopeful of a result.

I cannot give this Shoults family any more of my attention this year as I have to complete a very big and very important project (nothing to do with my genealogy) but I much appreciate all your contributions. I probably won't post any more replies.

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Tuesday 02 April 19 23:58 BST (UK)  »
Seems the 1881 Census for Marnoch is all broken up into individuals, not viewable as a household, unlike the 1881 census for England and Wales. I will not pay for just one individual entry in a household that gives me all her family. I can see that household by doing search for the Fearnside name at Marnoch:-
John Fearnside. H. M. 48. By the way, I could not find a marriage for him in all Ireland, searching all the Civil registrations. I might find him in the Church registrations. So maybe Ireland is a red herring and an inaccuracy that I was given by one of the fellow researchers who passed on information to me.
Eliza Fearnside. Must be the wife of the preceding. 43.
Eliza Ann Fearnside. Must be daughter of preceding. 21
Caroline Jane Fearnside. Must be ditto. 17
Robert Fearnside. Must be son. 14
Stephen Fearnside. Must be ditto. 12
May Fearnside. Must be daughter. 10
Williamina Fearnside. Must be ditto. 8
Anna Fearnside. Must be ditto. 7
Helen Fearnside. Must be ditto. 5
Ida Fearnside. Must be ditto. 3
Martha Fearnside. Must be ditto. 1

I wouldn't be surprised if this family are Banff people, nothing to do with Ireland. I shall make checks at the Irish Civil and Church registrations web page.

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Tuesday 02 April 19 23:45 BST (UK)  »
I can try and break my text up but when you and the others responding ask so many questions and I have such a mountain of material here, it is very difficult not to give full answers.

Perhaps I should say conclude it, apart from what I am posting on the Marnoch 1881 census below.

A friend posted result of his DNA test. It was ridiculous and I think the tests are a fraud and a way to make people part with money. I certainly will not take a DNA test. The results are as wide as a barn door.

5
Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Tuesday 02 April 19 22:47 BST (UK)  »
Rosinish, A 5th cousin of mine (Don Geoffrey, 17 Jul 1934-D. 21 Oct 2008) who researched with me sent his particular tree. His mother, Helen Shoults (born 19 May 1898, Finchley- D. 10 Sep 1981) was a grand-daughter of George Barrett Shoults. I will hunt for the other trees but I am sure that George Bicknell Shoults, who married Mary Ann is somebody else. He was born in Bermondsey, not Webb Street, Southwark, and the year was 1838 for his birth. I think it likely George Barrett Shoults, born at Webb Street, Southwark, 27 July 1837, was a cousin of this George Bicknell Shoults. He is certainly somewhere on that branch of the Shoults tree because of the name Bicknell which comes from Jemima Bicknell Back. I am no longer subscribed to Ancestry as I don't have the time to subscribe.
Forfarian, Thank you for letting me know that the 1881 census for Marnoch can be viewed at Scotland's People. I'll have a look at that at the earliest opportunity.

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Tuesday 02 April 19 21:06 BST (UK)  »
Forfarian and other contributors: thank you for your additional posts, links and suggestions. Yes, of course we have also researched wars and it's a big subject.  I agree Shoults and its variants has come from abroad but it could have been well-settled in this country even as early as the Viking hordes, so I am not going to pin down the period in history when the name first appeared in the British Isles. There are two George Frederick Shoults's on that tree. One is born in Southwark in 1802. He was a son of Peter Shoults junior - a carpenter like his father. This George Frederick married Jemima Bicknell Back (interesting family by the way - long story!). Their son, George Barrett Shoults (born Webb Street, Southwark, 1837-D.1909) was a florist. George Frederick Shoults, his son (born 20 January 1862, Finchley-D.1926) was a florist, but I've got a document buried in the pile that describes one of the George Shoults in this family cultivating tomatoes: the Shoults Blaby tomato of Leicestershire.  George Barrett Shoults is the man, as I recall. You can't even get the seeds now! George Barrett Shoults (1837-1909) married Mary Ann Greenhill (B.1837-d.Finchley, 1923) and it is their son, George Frederick Shoults (B.1862-D. 1 April 1926) who married Caroline Jane Fearnside at Marnoch. In answer to question what profession did Caroline have, I don't know. She is in the 1881 census for Marnoch but I have not been able yet to see a copy of that census. I am currently waiting to receive some letters from G F Shoults (1862-1926) and Caroline J Shoults, written to one of their children that might shed more light on the family. On subject of name spelling variants: here's an interesting one from Poland: Šolc. When pronounced it sounds the same as Shoults. So if we find a baptism or birth record for Piotr Mart͡ɕin Šolc (the Polish spelling of his name) in 1747, give or take a year or two, we shall be very interested to see how he might fit but we're very cautious about this sort of thing. This example is a good one to illustrate the point about begging to differ when it comes to the “right spelling” and the “wrong spelling”.  No point in making a fictional tree which will mislead so many other people in their individual quests. This Shoults family is so large to navigate it's no suprise to me if I've actually made some mistakes in what I post here. I do my best to be accurate but a lot of the family papers are buried in boxes or somewhere stored and wading through it to find which one grew tomatoes is a task I can hardly face with enthusiasm! Eventually I will find it but I am working on a giant project at the moment and genealogy is a hobby, not an occupation for me. I had to edit this because I'd garbled this tree at the first attempt. It is so confusing to have two George Frederick and a George Barrett Shoults. I don't know where George Bicknell Shoults would fit in, I'd have to check where he is!

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Tuesday 02 April 19 12:07 BST (UK)  »
Thanks to everybody for the helpful contributions. I am not suggesting that Shoults or any of its variants is a Scottish name. I am pretty sure that the name (if not for many long centuries a rarity but neverthless present) is not from Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales. It's a European (or possibly Russia also) name that was introduced to the British Isles at some point. That point we don't know about. One of the most likely scenarios is that Peter Shoults (or one of the two other Shoults in London parishes before him that we know about) was not born in the British Isles but abroad somewhere, that he came to this country as an alien with or without his parents, and furthermore may not have been naturalized - which was expensive. The tale of the first Shoults coming in with the monarch may have a grain of truth in it although we can't prove it is any more than a tale. The tale that they came from Courland is rather curious because that's not the first country one would think of, since it was ruled by the Swedes. At this point I'll thank the contributor (sorry I can't remember the name) for posting a link to all those interesting Schoults spellings. As you see, some of those are from Sweden (or in Sweden which is of course not the same thing). We don't rule out any spelling. We've turned away some Shoults because they don't fit into the tree anywhere and we think theirs is a copy-cat spelling. All their spouses have decidedly Germanic forenames - Johannes, etc. unlike our family which (apart from one branch that had George Frederick) used names you'd not associate with Germans - Jemmima, Susannah, Absolom, Thomas, John. Peter, by the way, signed himself Petter Shoults on a witness document in the 1780s. Petter is the Scandanavian spelling of Peter. We will add any spellings that will fit into the tree, including any that are not the Shoults spelling. They've got to fit into the tree. We will not manufacture a tree that "might" be right. The certainty factor has to be as high as it can be and that way we hope we've got our tree correct. Speaking of variants - one chap in the land tax assessments for St Paul's Shadwell 1773-1799 that my Uncle Shoults discovered, was spelt phonetically in different ways but they all sounded more or less the same. It is how the name sounds, not so much the spelling of it that is important to us. Schultz with an umlaut is nothing like the sound of our name. Neither is Schultz without an umlaut like the way it is spoken.

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Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Monday 01 April 19 22:53 BST (UK)  »
Sorry I should have written Baron Schultz. The spelling we don't want to find in our tree.

9
Scotland / Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« on: Monday 01 April 19 22:52 BST (UK)  »
Thanks, Ruskie.
When the IGI was freely searchable for the European records, my uncle and I did a lot of trawling of the name and possible variants.
We've discussed every possible avenue of research. We tried searching the non-parochial records. My problem with those was difficulty making out the German script in many of the records. That is one area that I certainly didn't trawl all the way through at Kew. Now I am hundreds of miles away from Kew and must give up any thought of doing more microfilm searching of those non-parochials.
We did look at denization and naturalization records.
The family had a few "tales" which are just that, probably, and of no factual basis whatever. One was that the first Shoults came to these islands with the monarch as part of the royal household. Another, that they were curs. This might have been a grandfather joking that they were dogs, or it might have been that they were from Courland. He did later write to a distantly related Shoults, mentioning that there was some talk of the family coming from Latvia. Latvia, of course, came after Courland (ruled by the Swedes at one time before the Russians beat them in battle). We could only find one Schultz in the National Archives, Kew, who was naturalized in the 1760s (by Act of Parliament) with his wife from Courland. This was a very expensive thing to do. Handel the composer was similarly naturalized by act of parliament. We don't hear anything more about this couple from Courland after that and it may be that somebody in our family had been to the national archives and seen that record and put two and two together.
Just in case there was any truth in the royal household tale, I checked the royal household lists as far back as the records survive. Not a single Shoults or anything like it, except for a Baron Schoultz whose widow received £100 from the Civil List during Queen Ann's reign. There is nothing in our records to make us think there was any connection with this chap!
Thanks for your kind suggestions.

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