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Messages - janetrizvi

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Can't help with the make of car; but wonder if Jim/bestie has documentary evidence that it indeed belongs to James Sheehan? Car-ownership, I believe was pretty much confined to the 'upper classes' even in the inter-war years, let alone before WWI. How likely wd. it have been for a publican to own a car?  To me it seems more probable that the car's owner is one of the overcoat-&-cap-clad toffs standing in front of it, while landlord James surveys the scene, perhaps wishing the splendid vehicle were his.
Janet

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Hullo Gary,
Sorry I never replied to your earlier message, I've been ill.
Thanks for the hint about House of Gordon. I downloaded it, & am glad to have it, though not sure how much light it throws on my quest for Mary Gordon's ancestry.
Birkenburn! I just love that name, & I hope the environs of your home are congruent with the vision it conjures up.
Sincerely,
Janet

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Aberdeenshire / Mary Anderson nee Gordon, b. 1682, d. (probably) Inverugie 1725
« on: Tuesday 04 June 13 08:40 BST (UK)  »
Can anyone help me with the ancestry of this lady, who is my 5-great grandmother? Her husband was the second of a whole phalanx of Alexander Andersons, belonging to the same family which lived & worked at English Mill, Inverugie, Peterhead from about 1600 to 1857. They are documented extensively in a family tree last updated & privately published in 1936.
I've got some info about Mary Gordon's ancestry from a number of online family trees, but they're not all consistent with each other. According to these, she was a daughter of Robert Gordon (1658--96) of Buthlaw, Longside, son of James Gordon (b. c. 1620), 1st laird of Buthlaw, son of Thomas Gordon (b. c. 1590), son of James Gordon (1560--92), of Birkenburn. The co-ordinates of Birkenburn are given as Dunbennan, Kinnoir, which I understand are the names of two parishes that were later amalgamated as Huntly; Birkenburn may be nearer Keith than Huntly. James Gordon's father may have been Alexander Gordon (1516--71); & Alexander's father James Gordon (1495--1553) of Lesmoir, Rhynie. This James Gordon seems to have been son of yet another James Gordon (1470--1558) first of Lesmoir, son of George Gordon (1430--81) of Tillytarmont.
(The senior Lesmoir branch, by the way, attracted a Nova Scotia baronetcy in 1625, & became extinct in 1839.)
My problem is that all the online family trees from which most of this info is taken, rely on each other for authority, so are suspect unless corroborated by documents or records & I can't (online) find any ref. to any such. So if anyone has researched the Gordons of Buthlaw, Birkenburn or Lesmoir on the ground, I'd love to hear from them.

OK, since posting the above, I've found & been able to download Rev. Wm. Temple's Thanage of Fermartyn (publ. Aberdeen 1894) in which the author has researched, from both old documents & family traditions, the major families of the Formartine district, including Gordons of Lesmoir & Gordons of Buthlaw.
The Lesmoir lineage goes like this: John Gordon of Essie---William Gordon 1st of Tillytarmont---George Gordon 2nd of Tillytarmont---James Gordon 1st of Lesmoir (d. between 1556 & 1559)---George Gordon 2nd of Lesmoir (d. 1600)---Alexander Gordon 3rd of Lesmoir (d. 1609)---James Gordon 4th of Lesmoir, 1st Baronet (d. 1641)---[a son,  grandson & great-grandson, all called James Gordon, the first 2 of whom predeceased the Baronet, so the last of whom became the 2nd bart., dying without issue so that the baronetcy reverted to his great-grand-uncle, brother of James 1st bart.] William Gordon 3rd bart. (d. 1672)---William Gordon 4th bart.
This last-mentioned, the 4th bart., had a brother Alexander James, who was said by tradition in the Buthlaw family to have married his cousin Anna Gordon of Buthlaw. Another document avers that the Buthlaw Gordons are descended from Thomas Gordon of Seggieden, 8th son of James Gordon 1st of Lesmoir by his second wife, Margaret Ogilvy. These 2 statements are perfectly compatible with each other, since Anna cd. have been descended from Thomas. Alexander James Gordon & his wife Anna had 2 sons, the elder of whom died without issue leaving the property to the younger, Thomas Gordon, who died about 1694. He looks like the most likely candidate to be Mary Gordon's father. There is no mention of any Robert Gordon of Buthlaw as given in the family trees.
It looks as though the family tree info given at the start of this post is garbled; I think probably a lot of confusion has arisen due to the number of characters with the same name, whether James or Alexander; & it wd. be nice if someone cd. sort it out for me, & if it cd. be confirmed whether Mary Gordon belonged to the Buthlaw family or not---since my only ref. for that is those dodgy trees.
 

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Monday 03 June 13 12:53 BST (UK)  »
How kind of you to remember me & send on my great-grandmother's obit. A great-grandmother to be proud of! Very many thanks.

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Thursday 23 May 13 12:54 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the ref. on Irish Presbyterianism. Putting 2 & 2 together, it does look as if the Clarkes were originally of Scottish Covenanting origin.
My info is from the memoir written by John Clarke's eldest daughter, Mary Gavin Clarke (1881--1976), A Short Life of Ninety Years, published privately in Edinburgh in 1973. She writes, 'Of the family of James Clarke, my paternal grandfather, almost nothing is known except that his father was true Irish & presumably of Celtic origin.' No ref., so perhaps only hearsay & inference & way off the mark. She goes on, 'My father grew up in an atmosphere of somewhat rigid piety & religious observance in a forgotten sect of Presbyterianism, the Original Seceders'. Here she's on firmer ground. That's obviously the Killaig connection, & I'm sure you're right that James Clarke of Gills must have joined that church at the instance of his wife Robina Bryce.
But then how do we identify the James Clarke whose baptism Rev. James Bryce records in his notebook with James Clarke son of Samuel Clarke? The former wd. presumably belong to the Killaig congregation, i.e. to a family of Seceders whereas, as you point out, the Clarkes seem to have been Reformed Presbyterians. It seems that by establishing James Clarke of Gill's parentage, we've lost his d.o.b.---though, to be sure, the record of his death indicates the birth-year as 1820 (Dec.1891, aged about 71).

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Thursday 23 May 13 09:00 BST (UK)  »
Gosh, it's Christmas! Not only the facts that you've unearthed, but also quite a lot of inferences from the facts. Samuel Clarke died one day after his mother Jane, & the biblical Saul-&-Jonathan quotation on his gravestone, referring to him & his mother, indicates a close bond between them.
The full text of Samuel Clarke's will is online, & I've spent the morning studying it. He left to his mother a life-interest in his house, which on her death was to be transferred to his sister Jane. His wife Mary, who appears to have been either 11 or 13 years older than him, was required to vacate the house, & his executors to find suitable lodgings for her & pay her a monthly allowance. Whew! He can't have liked her a lot. Makes me wonder what the circumstances of their marriage must have been.
'Plenty more to find on the family', you say. I'll bet! Wd. there be any way of finding out the maiden names of the 2 wives for a start? And I'm intrigued by the name Neill, which may indeed go some way towards corroborating my family's tradition that the Clarkes were 'true Irish'. But am I right in supposing that 'true Irish' implies Catholic? How common wd. a change of religion from Catholic to Presbyterian have been?
Anyhow, very many thanks for your effort so far.

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Wednesday 22 May 13 13:41 BST (UK)  »
How does one access Rev. James Bryce's notebook?
Is there no context for the note of James Clarke's birth? Can we be certain that it refers to his future son-in-law?
The James Clarke born 8 Dec. 1820 then can't be the same James Clarke who was baptised in Drumachose on 30 August 1820.

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Wednesday 22 May 13 13:13 BST (UK)  »
'According to Rev. Bryce'---can you give me any more info about this source?
Presumably he noted James Clarke's d.o.b. in connection with the latter's marriage to his daughter?

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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Clarke, Coleraine
« on: Wednesday 22 May 13 12:57 BST (UK)  »
Many thanks for this.
But it still doesn't get me any further in the search for the Clarke antecedents beyond James Clarke!

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