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Messages - billcat

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1
Buckinghamshire Completed Look ups / Re: Administrations
« on: Saturday 13 June 15 16:45 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Galium, Yes I have checked the online databases both for Bucks and the PCC.

I have just gone through the first page of results for Smith on the online Bucks Database and every single one has a date for Year Will Written and for Year Proved, e.g. it looks like every single one is a Will and not an Administration. Suspect Admons are listed elsewhere if they exist?

2
Buckinghamshire Completed Look ups / Administrations
« on: Saturday 13 June 15 08:47 BST (UK)  »
If someone died intestate in Bucks in the 1700s and held property would an administration of their estate have been made and would the record still exist?

3
The Common Room / Strange Property Grant Arrangement
« on: Thursday 28 May 15 14:04 BST (UK)  »
I have been looking at an old grant in which it looks like a father grants land to his son in law on condition of knight service, but then the son in law grants it back to the father in law and his son and heirs in perpetuity unless the son has no heirs in which case the land reverts back to the son in law's heirs! As an example say we have:-

father = William Bigg
son = John Bigg
daughter = Elizabeth Worth nee Bigg
son in law = Robert Worth

so

1) William Bigg has made a grant of his land to Robert Worth and his heirs and
2) Robert Worth grants the land back to William Bigg and his son's Johns heirs with the exception that if John's heirs runs out the lands revert back to Robert Worth's heirs

Does this sound right? Has anyone seen examples like this? Perhaps it was a way to prevent your lands from being confiscated by the crown as normally if you left land to your eldest son and his line ran out the crown would confiscate the land and it would not get passed to any cousins like the Worths.

Hope this makes sense!

4
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: fesse engrailed
« on: Wednesday 06 May 15 07:59 BST (UK)  »
Pownall of Cheshire are recorded as using "argent a lion rampant sable" as are one of the Newton families:-

http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/vale_royal/VRE19.html

Any connections to your family in marriage of area?

5
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: fesse engrailed
« on: Monday 04 May 15 19:57 BST (UK)  »
In Fosters 1902 Feudal Coat of Arms he says that for really old (much before College of Arms and quartering times) arms there is a recurring logic that when two families merged their wealth the subsequent arms reflect parts of both families arms.

If the family that owned your lion/fesse was old perhaps they were descended from one family with just the lion and another with the fesse?

If the family was much later ignore the above though...

6
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« on: Monday 04 May 15 15:55 BST (UK)  »
Papworths Ordinary also lists a Marmion lion arms:-

Gules. a lion rampant or. fretty azure Sir William Marmion, Gloucester

It apparently comes from Glovers Ordinary which seems to be a list of armigers in 1567.

Joseph Fosters "Some Feudal Coats of Arms" lists the following;

gules a lion rampant vair crowned or (uncrowned in Jenyns Ordinary)

being worn by

1) Sir Wm Marmion at the first Dunstable tournament in 1308
2) a Suffolk Knight according to the Arundel Roll and to
3) Sir Wm Marmion of Leics (in Parly. Roll though in Harl. MS 6137 fo24 the field is argent and the lion vert)

So it looks like the lion arms in Galby church may be those of the 1308 Dunstable jouster, Sir William Marmion (but has different colouring from the later Gloucester one) or one of his descendants, and the simpler vair fess gules fretty perhaps being the senior member of the Marmion family Sir Philip Marmion who kept an eye on the land his junior cousins were subletting off of him (and no doubt had more money to pay for church repairs!).

So why did at least two of the junior Marmion lines switch from the vair fess gules design to lion rampant ones?

7
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Blunt / Blount family crest
« on: Tuesday 28 April 15 16:49 BST (UK)  »
Burkes General Armory lists the most common Blount family as having arms of

"Barry nebulee of six or and sa"

perhaps like this:- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sir_John_Blount,_KG.png

The listing for Blount of Mapledurham Oxford has these arms quarted with Ayala, Castile and Beauchamp.

Your six martlets arms seem to be a different Blount family? and have a crest of two swans necks in a crescent.

See https://archive.org/stream/generalarmoryofe00burk#page/92/mode/2up

8
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« on: Tuesday 21 April 15 18:46 BST (UK)  »
Hi Maec

Yes it is the Marmion family.

The original senior 3 lines of the family (Tamworth, Winteringham & Torrington) are all listed as having the original arms they had back in France.

"vair a fess gu"

According to Charles Ferrers Palmer, who has probably researched the family more than anyone else, a line eminating from the sixth son of the senior line, settled at Galby Leics. In Galby church there are 2 coats of arms identified as being Marmion ones listed in Nicholls History of Leicestershire:-

1 - "vair, a fess gules, fretty or"
2 - gules, a lion argent rampant, crowned or

and interestingly an Everingham one quartered with another

3 - Quarterly, 1 & 4  gules, a lion argent rampant, crowned or Everingham; 2 & 3 per pale and a bend...

At first I thought Nicholls must have confused the arms of the Marmion and the Everingham families but Burkes General Armory also list the Marmions using the lion rampant design in addition to their original simple "vair a fess gu".

Confusing...

9
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« on: Saturday 18 April 15 18:21 BST (UK)  »
A Coat of Arms started back in Anglo-Norman times as:-

vair a fess gu

A bit later (pre-College of Arms) several members of the family slightly adapted it to

vair a fess gu fretty or (i.e. they added a gold cross hatch to the stripe in the middle)

and then (still pre-College of Arms) several of them started using the very different

gules a lion rampant vair crowned or

Does anyone know

1 - what does the addition of the gold cross hatch signify?
2 - why would a family start using such a radically different design as the lion rampant which only shares the vair coluring of their previous arms? Marriage?

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