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Messages - devondaenys

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1
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:02 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: aghadowey on Tuesday 09 March 21 10:37 GMT (UK)
I THINK I FOUND THE COLE FAMILY IN IRELAND!!!

Will take a little while to type it all up but the clues were in Ontario records.

Firstly, want to start with confusion over name of Robert Cole's mother. His death certificate gives mother as Frances but I think this is incorrect. Robert's sister was called Frances and since Robert's children would never have met their grandparents perhaps though Aunt Frances named after their grandmother (again, I have never hear of Ann and Frances being used interchangeably in Ireland).

Now, the cemetery register for burial of Frances Brook (nee Cole) lists her birthplace as Timonly, Ireland. Devondaenys is that not your online tree that shows this record already?
No such place as 'Timonly' but I did find TIMONEY in Co. Tipperary. The Poor Law Union/Registration district for Timoney is Roscrea so I concentrated searches for Coles there.
This death looks promising for Robert's father- widower, age 70 (born c1812), informant son Sam Cole-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/48
41598.pdf
From there I searched further and was able to build a small tree-

George Cole (c1812-20 Jan.1882 Collawn, Roscrea Parish), farmer, m. _ (d.bef.1882)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/4841598.pdf
1. Samuel “Sam” Cole (c1848 Co.Tipperary-9 Aug.1924 Coolawn) m.(19 Nov.1889 R.C.) Sarah Stapleton (alive 1924)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10751/5920938.pdf (groom Timoney)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/824644/ (even though marriage was in R.C. Church it was likely mixed marriage as only Sarah & children listed as R.C.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/1703157/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1924/05029/4375222.pdf
   a. Richard Cole (30 Nov.1890 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02399/1894572.pdf
   b. Mary Cole (11 Aug.1893 Collawn-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02282/1856666.pdf
   c. Samuel Cole (7 Aug.1899 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02018/1774499.pdf

Going by George's age and age of son Samuel it's entirely possible that George Cole was married before the start of civil registration of marriages in Ireland which would explain why marruage hasn't bee found.

Wow, what amazing work you've done there! This is so incredibly generous of you, thanks so much  :)
I've spent the better part of today following up on everything you've gathered here. First of all, yes, you're right, Frances was Robert's sister who also immigrated to Toronto, likely little while before him. Mary Ann likely mixed up the names on Robert's death certificate, and misspelled Rob's mom's maiden name.
 I recently noticed an inconsistency in records from within Rob's lifetime, which may be significant: he is 29 on the 1891 census... and 29 AGAIN on his marriage certificate, 4 years later! So he either lied to his 19 year old wife Mary Ann about his age, making himself younger-- OR he had reason to lie about his age as a teenage immigrant, making himself older (20, to be exact).

Currently, I'm hunting for any recorded connection between the people/names I'm pretty much certain are a connection (Frances Cole/Brooks, Mary Ann Piercy/Cole) and this Tirmoney family you've found for me... fingers crossed! I do, however, have one real concern here: I came across a Robert Cole in the Roscrea registry, born in 1867 to a Mary Cole. This excited me, since it could very well fit the bill. Until I noticed a matching death record, suggesting this Robert died in infancy a year later.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of this :)

2
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 06:15 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: aghadowey on Monday 08 March 21 12:17 GMT (UK)
The information that George supplied for his marriage is likely to be more accurate than details on his death certificate.

Civil registration of births & deaths didn't start until 1864. Registration of Catholic marriages also in 1864 but non-Catholic marriages from 1845.

Any occupation for Robert's father?
George, son of George Cole & Ann Mills, born Cork (father a soldier)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRM8-T6J
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122576.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020590/7224458.pdf

Hmm... I have considered the possibility that Robert's legal first name was not actually Robert, and perhaps it was one of those families where they middle names. In this case, I would actually be trying to find a 'George' or 'William' (Robert's first son was named William George). This George seems a bit too young to be Robert, unfortunately... but perhaps a sibling, or even a cousin? Either way, thank you so much for helping- I will certainly save these links somewhere!

3
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 00:06 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: jonw65 on Monday 08 March 21 12:57 GMT (UK)
Here's the Toronto death cert for Robert Cole. It originally said Don't know for his mother. Frances Pearsy has then been written.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y3S5-32Y

There's another York, Toronto death.
24 August 1920
Frances Brooks
Age 61
Born Ireland
Father George Cole
Mother Mary Ann Piercy
Both born Ireland
Informant R G Brooks, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DKR9-X1Z

Is there a connection? :-\

I keep getting tied up in stuff today, and have yet to *properly* dive in and start the real sleuthing... but from my initial read-through of these records, and others which follow the same trail that have since been shared here, I'm extremely optimistic that this may be it! Thanks again to you and everyone else- I will be back with updates, and probably more thanks to pass along from other Coles after a family phone call later tonight.
And to anyone who's contribution I have yet to respond to: I promise I WILL get to you eventually, hang tight :)

4
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Monday 08 March 21 23:56 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: athacliath62 on Monday 08 March 21 11:08 GMT (UK)
what religion was this family ?

without knowing a location it could be difficult as there are no clues as to which church this family might have attended, the records may not be online, or may not have survived

There are about 7 George Cole entries on Griffith's valuation, most in Ulster but two in county Tipperary in Corbally parish c1864, might be worth focusing on this area to check record availability.

This would've been my first question here too honestly- and yes, I am uncomfortably aware of how central that was (still is in some cases) to Irish identity. The reason I never mentioned religion initially was because I didn't want to eliminate any possibilities, however unorthodox (ex. Robert choosing to leave his family's religion behind when he emigrated, for whatever reason). From what I know about my Cole family in Canada, everyone from the past 3 generations has been pretty much the polar opposite of spiritual... so if Robert turned out to be less personally attached to his church than most people of his time, it wouldn't have surprised me.
He is down as Presbyterian on most documents though, and broad family knowledge (which goes far beyond the Coles specifically and includes our other Irish sides) suggests there are absolutely no Catholics anywhere.

5
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Monday 08 March 21 20:14 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Dundee on Monday 08 March 21 13:04 GMT (UK)
I believe they are the people he was boarding with in 1891.

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148174-00657

Debra  :)

... My gosh, there it is. Cannot BELIEVE I didn't notice that (though I explained what likely left me so oblivious in my general reply- sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation). I also had no idea Ann could be short for Frances, that simple tidbit would've made a huge difference. And oops, I did misspell Francis in my original post. I've had a bad habit of mixing up the male and female spellings throughout my research :-X

6
Ireland / Re: Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Monday 08 March 21 20:07 GMT (UK)  »
My gosh, look at all of you doing in a couple hours what us Coles haven't been able to do for 50 years! I'm my whole family (myself included of course) will be impressed, ecstatic and eternally grateful!!
I was very new to genealogy when I started looking for Robert (I'm only 21, by the way)... I suppose I formed some assumptions then, which stuck in the back of my mind and narrowed my search unnecessarily. For example, I never really examined those listed around Robert on his census: though I've known that's a strategy for awhile now, I didn't in the beginning, and became convinced Robert must've been the only member of his family in Toronto around that time (since no familial relationships were explicitly stated anywhere).
 

7
Ireland / Cole Family- 50 year brick wall, please help!
« on: Sunday 07 March 21 21:28 GMT (UK)  »
Desperately looking for my great-great-grandpa Robert Cole. This mystery has lasted generations: my great uncle even went to visit Robert's wife's relatives in Ireland, and returned empty handed. Said uncle, who passed away 8 yrs ago, named his (living) son Robert too... I have to finally solve this!

Robert Cole emigrated in 1883. He was born in Ireland in 1863, but the earliest record we've found him on is the 1891 Canadian census (Toronto). He married Mary Anne Crawford in 1896. She arrived in 1894 from Fermanagh, and they had 5 kids. He died in 1936.
According to Rob's marriage certificate, he was born in Tip. But according to his son's marriage certificate, Rob was born in Cork. Rob's parents are 'George & Ann' on his marriage certificate; but on his death certificate they're 'George Cole & Francis Pearsy'.
For months on end, I've searched... there's no sign of a Robert Cole, associated with George + Francis OR George + Anne, existing anywhere in Ireland between 1860 & 1883. If I didn't have his shillelagh, I'd be looking to other countries.

If anyone has ANY knowledge, ideas or advice, I'd be so grateful!

8
Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: GEDmatch HELP PLEASE
« on: Sunday 07 March 21 00:36 GMT (UK)  »
My first question to you here is- how many generations back do you think this genetic connection might be? Because once you've gotten 5 generations back (great-great-great grandparents), there's a decent chance that you may not have inherited any DNA from an ancestor. However, of course, this doesn't mean you and another person aren't family! It just means this particular person's DNA (or at least, a notable portion of it) didn't manage to make it to both of you. And when you think about how many more people would've married into the family within that (5 generation) time, it's totally understandable.

Now for the real science. Essentially, once you get down to 2cm, you're fairly likely to be looking at ANCIENT dna. As in, everyone-ultimately-came-from-Africa or Ghengis-Khan-had-how-many-kids level ancient. So basically, not something you should even remotely rely on when doing genealogical research. You've probably heard the 'fun fact' that all humans share 99% of their DNA. While that's not an exact, universally accurate statistic, there's a kernal of truth to the general idea... which is why most DNA companies have a 5-10cm cutoff. In fact, GED match has been pretty notorious for giving false positives, simply because it allows its users to lower their threshold so much. Most companies have good reason for not doing that! Some people have actually done little experiments with GED: once they lower their threshold to 2cm, they suddenly become 'related' to a fifth or so of the site's users!

In sum--- No, it is not a significant relationship, nor telling evidence of one. BUT: as I explained in my first paragraph, you and this person might very well be family, even if your DNA doesn't match up as such. So this is certainly not a reason to give up on the possibility of a relationship! But perhaps it's time to take a step back from DNA and focus on records/research. Good luck to the both of you :)

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