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Good morning Heywood, thank you for your reply and information. I have James and Ellen but not Nicholas, I'll have another look at Parish register. I also have Charlotte c.1849 - c.1891 from the Manchester census. I've been searching for the family's home township for over 20 years and researched numerous what eventually turned out to be red herrings, many of which I've posted on here. I'll now start searching Marlhill to see if I have any luck there. Hopefully I can get across to Ireland again in the near future and visit these towns grave yards. Alan

Yes, very elusive, I've tried looking from every angle I can think of, including following the marriage witnesses to Glasgow, Scotland where I actually found a Patrick Ryan and family living close by. Another dead end 

Alan, Patrick I believe died 1896. He asper his marriage to Mary was a widower with quiet a few children from his first marriage

Thank you John, I don't have anything on Patrick apart from 1891 to c.1994, I've been searching for decades and followed many leads to no avail. If you have something that I haven't found and could look into, I would be very grateful. Alan

It was my late uncle that told me, who was evidently informed by my granddad. There was no mention of the Gummersons' but I found them myself on the 1901 & 1911 which didn't ring a bell with my uncle. I tried to link the families through marriage using all combinations of the surnames including the wives maiden names (Askam and Heath) but no luck again

Thank you Rosinish, for educating me, I never realized how relationships were calculated. So in answer to the original question, The gt gt grand daughter of James W Ryan has 41 Cms