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Messages - Bellejazz

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1
Kildare / Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« on: Saturday 25 November 23 03:29 GMT (UK)  »
I am even later to this thread but wanted to chime in to mention that I am a descendant of Ephraim & Margery through their daughter Abigail who unfortunately married and then passed away 2 weeks after giving birth to her only child, a son named Francis Boake Carter. She was only 17. Her husband was William Carter "a person of much respectability, advancing to the middle period of life. He kept an eminent  china shop in Grafton Street" (in Dublin I believe). His grief was apparently such that he never remarried and my 4th ggrandfather Francis Boake Carter was his only child. I've not been able to establish who William Carters parents were sadly.

Unlike most quaker families of the time who are meticulously recorded, as mentioned Margery was Ephraims niece so they were no longer welcome at meetings and their lives were sadly not as well documented. I'm not sure of the discrepancy regarding the age of Sarah Boake when she supposedly had her daughter Mary as I've not really looked into that side of the family at this stage, I don't recall hearing/reading Margery & Ephraim had raised Mary so that's very interesting to learn.

The family are mentioned in Mary Leadbeater Shackeltons "Annals of Ballitore", where she actually writes of the death of Ephraims daughter Abigail. I read it a few years ago now so not sure if it mentions the Butlers or Bells as I was mainly keen to find the parts that concerned Ephraim but it is an interesting read. The Quakers are fascinating and given how large many of the families are and their fondness for using the same names repeatedly, very challenging and time consuming to unravel!  :D




Quote from: PJB on Friday 15 September 23 15:46 BST (UK)
I am a little late to this thread.

I have recently found out that I share YDNA with Captain Thomas Butler who led the Irish settlers out to South Africa in 1820. I am not a descendant of Captain Thomas Butler rather my Kildare Butler line and Thomas's line share a common Ancestor.

I have read through John Montgonerys book and to paraphase John he writes his mother Mary Parkes born 1762 and the wife of Captain Thomas Butler, Elizabeth, grew up together. I have Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes death as 29 Aug 1750 from Quaker records, if this is correct she cannot be the mother of Mary Parkes born 1762, even if the the death date is incorrect Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes would have been 50 years old when Mary was born.

I am told that Mary was brought up by her sister Margery Park and her husband Ephraim Boake, an interesting marriage as Margery is Ephraim Boake's niece, again the quaker records. If Ephraim Boake and Magery did bring up Mary then that puts Mary in the same area as Elizabeth the wife of Captain Thomas Butler and brings credence to Johns book.

I am interested in the Christian Name of the daughter of Thomas Bell who married Thomas Parke of Baranstown, Wicklow or any additional information.

This is an extreamly interesting bit of research

https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/settlershowparty.php?party=Butler

 

2
England / Do lists of diseases/epidemics exist?
« on: Tuesday 05 July 22 07:17 BST (UK)  »
Hi there, as per title I'm just wondering if any resources exist that list epidemics of diseases that went around in particular years. I did a bit of a google and wasn't very successful.


I have found (not for the first time sadly) multiple (3) children in one of my family groups that died within a very short period; only 12 days to be more precise, the grief must have been unbearable  :( .

It clearly must have been a disease of some description, I'm thinking smallpox or typhoid maybe but I'm curious if there's a means of finding out what might have been the likely culprit?


The year was 1795 and it was in Uttoxeter Staffordshire, I was uncertain if this post was better for the Staffordshire forum + someone that might have local history knowledge of this kind of thing, or if it was a more general query for a bigger audience?


TIA,
Belinda.

3
Clare / Re: BROGAN family from Co.CLARE to Australia
« on: Tuesday 03 May 22 02:59 BST (UK)  »
Hi Joy, thanks for your response.


James seems to have prospered in the colonies after a rocky start being transported! Forty pounds in not a small amount of money  :o


I had done some sleuthing and figured out the family dynamics here. Now I just need to try and find out if MY Margaret is 'the Margaret' from the China, or if she's a ring in that somehow ended up in the same place in NSW at a similar time as all these other Brogans  :D ;)


I've not yet been able to locate an alternative, appropriately aged Margaret in the Brogan trees I've looked at on Ancestry, so I'm hopeful its her.


Thanks,
Belinda

4
Clare / Re: BROGAN family from Co.CLARE to Australia
« on: Tuesday 03 May 22 02:43 BST (UK)  »
Hi Debra,


thanks for the clarification, after a few days of piecing them together on Ancestry that's how I suspected the family groups aligned.


Unfortunately Margarets marriage certificate has limited information, only her Husbands name, their religion and place they married/resided (Goulburn NSW), no place of origin, no parents, nothing for either of them. It is without a doubt one of the most frustratingly useless certificates I have paid for, and I've bought alot!


It does mention a Mary Durick as a witness which I thought could be a lead as I believe that is a name that ties in with the 'main Brogan family' of this topic.


Margaret's death certificate was the main basis of all my info I have for her, and now after years of no further leads I found people on Ancestry who had connected her to this 'main Brogan family' group which led me to this line of questioning. Her death certificate mentions mother as Ellen Conroy (looks like) and father as Martin, birthplace Co. Clare.


How do I obtain a RC Church record from NSW? Is it likely to contain any more info that the official marriage certificate?


oh ... I'd had the same though about Patrick, to young to be Penny's son, there's something amiss there!  :D


Thanks,
Belinda

5
Clare / Re: BROGAN family from Co.CLARE to Australia
« on: Sunday 01 May 22 08:43 BST (UK)  »
Actually with further investigation the whole 8 family members emigrating together including "Margaret and her widowed mother Ellen" doesn't make much sense either because there was a Bryan aged 36 included in the group which would be the right age to be the Bryan/Martin(???) that was Margaret's father.

The others were:
Michael aged 38
James 13
Ellen 30
Margaret 18
Patrick 27
Michael 14
& John 11

So confusing!

6
Clare / Re: BROGAN family from Co.CLARE to Australia
« on: Sunday 01 May 22 02:34 BST (UK)  »
Hello all,

sorry for dredging up an old thread but after many years of absence from RC this is what has brought me back, a google search leading to this very thread! And I have made little inroads with this family so if this is a true connection then its wonderful because it will have cracked one of my toughest nuts.

I am a 3x great grandaughter of Margaret Brogan (b. abt 1835) who married Denis O'Neil in Goulburn NSW in 1857.

Some recent searches on Ancestry have resulted in suggestions that Margaret is the 18 year old Margaret who with her mother Ellen (the mentioned widow), immigrated to Sydney from Ireland with 7? family members on the ship China in 1854.

Much of the information seems to fit except I am struggling to make some links and understand the big picture.

I can't confidently place Ellen and Margaret in amongst the Brogans, some trees seem to suggest that a Bryan Brogan was Margarets father (+ mother 'Ellen'), and he died before the family emigrated but the only Bryan I can find was a "Bryan Hubert Brogan" who was married to "Penelope O'Brien" and if I'm following correctly they seem to be the parents of the Brogan brothers who emigrated? And also far too old to be Margarets father.

Additionally I have a death certificate for Margaret stating she died in Braidwood aged 96, was born in County Clare and her parents were MARTIN Brogan and Ellen Conroy.

My speculations/questions:

I know if she was 96 at her death maybe her memory wasn't too sharp or maybe the relatives got it wrong and her father was a Bryan and not Martin, or maybe Bryan/Martin was the son of Bryan Hubert and used Martin (middle name perhaps???) to differentiate himself?

Did Bryan Hubert & Penelope have a son Bryan?

Who was the James Snr. that sponsored the family to come out from Ireland? Was he the oldest of the Brogan sons? Did he himself come as well? Except for being the sponsor his name is not listed, only a much younger James.

Is anyone who has a better understanding of all the Brogans able to piece this together and help me understand it all? :D

7
Australia / Re: NSW (?) Marriage and/or Death - Jane BAIN
« on: Monday 16 March 15 03:12 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Monday 16 March 15 02:39 GMT (UK)
What documents do you hold to show that Alexander and Henrietta were settled in 1840-1841 in what became Victoria?

I can see that there's an Alexander CLUGSTONE arriving in Sydney on the ship Portland in 1837.  He came with a wife. 

Cheers,  JM

Yes that's them. I've downloaded the document from Ancestry and it says they married on board ship, she was travelling with her sister Mary. The rest of the Bains (Jane jnr, brother James, sister Elizabeth & their mother Jane) came the following year, also on the Portland out of Greenock.

All I had to go on for the "Vic" timeline was an email someone had sent me which I can't locate now  :-\ , however it certainly seems that was incorrect intel and that the Clugstons didn't go to "Victoria" until quite some time later.

The only thing I have atm which marks that change in location is the birth of Margaret in 1848 at Edwa. Victoria (wherever that is), and by this stage their ward Jane Bain would have been 16 years old so could have either gone with them or stayed in Sydney.

There wasn't much in the way of a useful lead for a Jane Bain of the right age on the NSW BDM site but there is that 1860 m. of a Jane Clugston to James Kelly in Cooma that Sue found, so that might be my next angle to research.

Thanks,
B.

8
Australia / Re: NSW (?) Marriage and/or Death - Jane BAIN
« on: Monday 16 March 15 02:57 GMT (UK)  »
Yes I've just gone and had a look at that and there are children under NSW births deaths and marriages from 1838 - 1844; between BDM and Ancestry I found:

John Clugston b. 1838, Sydney
John Clugston b. 1839, Sydney
James Clugston b. 1839, Sydney
James Clugston b. 1840, Sydney
William Clugston b. 1842, Sydney
Henrietta Clugston b. 1844, Sydney

I can't search VIC BDM directly but on Ancestry Birth & Death indexes I found the following all with parents Alexander & Henrietta:

Margaret Clugston b. 1848, Edwa. (?) Victoria
Robert Clugston b. 1850, Edwa. Victoria
Alexander Clugstone b. 1854, Campbells Creek, Victoria
Mary Ann Clugston b. 1857, Castlemaine, Vic
Jessey Clugston b. 1860, Amehurst, Vic

Along with a death for Henrietta (1860 - VIC) and Alexander Clugston is on the Electoral Rolls at Maldon in 1856.

So they started in Sydney and then came to the VIC goldfields ... and stayed here .... maybe.

My head hurts.

Thanks,
B.


9
Australia / Re: NSW (?) Marriage and/or Death - Jane BAIN
« on: Monday 16 March 15 02:32 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Monday 16 March 15 02:21 GMT (UK)
Who was Alexander CLUGSTONE, holding the Publican's Licence for the Commercial Hotel SYDNEY in 1840, 1841, 1842....  was he not Jane's guardian?


Cheers,  JM

Potentially. I'm not sure how/if there's a means of determining that for certain though. I did think Clugston would be a faily rare name but it seems (at least from searching Ancestry) that's not entirely the case so I'm not going to take it for granted, lol.

Thanks,
B.

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