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Messages - PommieG

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1
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Tuesday 21 February 23 04:34 GMT (UK)  »
My attempt to break down a brickwall has failed. Of course I have many of these, in fact one on every family line.Most are in the 1700's, some 1600's and one or two in 1500's.That's what makes genealogy so interesting. While learning about 'who' you discover what they were involved in.Thomas Robertson and Ellen Birmingham are my only wall in 1800's,
     The discussion here as been great. A lot of people searching for a breakthrough. The result is that now I'm doubtful about the identity of my 2x great grandmother. What I have found is the tradition of gypsie or traveller ancestry is true but attributed to the wrong family.
Thanks anyway.

2
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Monday 20 February 23 05:15 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Talacharn on Sunday 19 February 23 21:20 GMT (UK)
I was not thinking of Hart being in the military, but the slave trade. It was certainly still happening in the Indian ocean. In looking, I was surprised to see so many Robertson’s in India at the time.

Did Ellen remain with Thomas throughout? I cannot find a marriage between Ellen Bermingham and Thomas Robertson, but there are marriages around 1850 to other men.

Both may not have used their birth names. Travellers usually had a few aliases. If you have access to newspaper articles, you could try Thomas/John Robertson and John Hart with ‘alias’ to see if they were known by another name. Usually they would be in articles of court recordings. Some travellers married in church, especially if they married a non-traveller, but many did not marry. Travellers without close family to help, often used workhouses for births. Workhouses were expected to complete registrations, but required the mother to know specific information and cooperate. Not liking authority, many did not give the mother’s maiden name, or understand what was meant by the term.
      Thomas and Ellen were together about April 1846.Where ? Unknown. Ellen's claim to be born in Manchester is now a bit doubtful. They stayed together until her untimely death in July 1870 aged 48.
Sarah, their daughter died 1892 aged 45. Thomas Robinson as named in 1891 census died 1895, registered under that name
      My father and his siblings did not know any grand parents. The rumour got around that we were descended from gypsies. Travelers at least unless Ellen Birmingham was a true gypsie. I doubt I'll ever know for certain.

3
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Sunday 19 February 23 06:55 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: amondg on Sunday 19 February 23 04:55 GMT (UK)
See reply 14. Poster has Sarah's birth certificate.
No father listed mother Robertson.
So she was illegitimate.
Ellen appears to have made up the maiden name  Birmingham for subsequent children.
      I was the poster. I got the certificate some time ago.  Sarah b. 1847 St.Giles Workhouse. I just found this link 
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780303.0

About workhouses being used as lying in hospitals.  It seems they were. Ellen Robertson was not necessarily an inmate but went there to avail herself of the medical help there. She may have been an orphan or a prostitute. The superintendent might not have had the relevant information to fill the certificate properly. Thomas Robertson was probably not present at the birth.
      Sarah Robertson was illegitimate as were most of my ancestors and relatives down that line right up to my father b. 1907
      No doubt Ellen and Thomas were travellers. You may be right she could have chosen the name Birmingham if it was one of there 'camps' on the way to Leeds.
   Good thinking. Thank you.

4
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Sunday 19 February 23 01:03 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Talacharn on Saturday 18 February 23 15:10 GMT (UK)
There is an interesting article in the Carmarthen Journal dated 23rd November 1811 talking about the military in India. A John Robertson was in trouble for provoking a duel with another Cadet. It may not be relevant, but I was interested as on the 1851 Census Thomas says he was born in India and there is confusion in using the name John.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3676769/3676773/25/
     Interesting indeed !  in 1811 the military in India was the private army of the East India Co. Not until 1857 was the British army proper involved. It may not be relevant ?  Thomas Robertson in censuses 1841- Middlesex, 1851- East India, 1861- Middlesex, 1871- Middlesex 1881- East Indies 1891- At sea.
      1851 and 1861 at Leeds gives the impression that he was resident there all that time. The addresses and his trade is different in each and the birth of Selina was registered in Nottingham.
   John Hart ? b. 1821- Africa ? I find that odd because 1821 Britain had no colonies or interests in Africa except Cape Colony. he could have come from there but why ?

5
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Saturday 18 February 23 10:55 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Talacharn on Saturday 18 February 23 10:48 GMT (UK)
The marriage I offered was Thomas Robertson’s son marrying the Hart daughter, 20 years after the census. Both families must have kept in touch. It seems to have caused some confusion regarding a second marriage. As for a Birmingham/Robertson marriage there probably was not one.

There could be newspaper articles relating to both families.

I have come across the surname Birmingham before, but a few decades later. They were itinerants in West Wales living alongside travellers, and claimed to be local, with one from Chester, but there was a census that said Ireland. Travellers used aliases and changed their names to suit who they were taking with, so I doubt Birmingham was their birth name. This probably will not help, but those tracing traveller families will fully understand the brick walls.

The name Birmingham may have been used to blend in with the locals, as that area was their intended home. I do not consider it an Irish name. In Wales, travellers adopted Welsh sounding surnames. London was a Guild city, where all tradespeople had to belong to a Guild. Birmingham accepted everyone, which was why many travellers were based in and around that area.
The first recorded Bermingham in Ireland, Robert de Bermingham (son of William) accompanied Richard de Clare or 'Strongbow' in Henry II's conquest of Ireland in 1172. On arrival he received: "an ancient monument, valued at 200 pounds, on which was represented in brass the landing of the first ancestor of the family of Birmingham in Ireland."
     Not all Birminghams are Irish by any means.
   Marriage of Thomas b. 1850 to the Harts daughter I'm just looking into. Can't see a marriage. Found a baptism. Sarah Hart, 7th Oct. Birmingham, Warwickshire. Parents John Hart, labourer. Wife Jane. Residence Digbeth. Looks like they were travellers too.

6
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Saturday 18 February 23 10:22 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: trish1120 on Saturday 18 February 23 09:07 GMT (UK)
Fair enough it was just a possibility as I couldn't see a Birmingham/Robertson Marriage.
Neither can I. It's the missing link.

7
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Saturday 18 February 23 05:30 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: trish1120 on Friday 17 February 23 10:10 GMT (UK)
I wonder if anyone related has a childs birth cert?

I have an inkling one or both of them may have been married before.

Married before ? I doubt that. Ellen was possibly only 18 when she gave birth to Sarah Feb. 1847 and Thomas may have been in detention in the early 1840's

8
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Saturday 18 February 23 05:22 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Talacharn on Friday 17 February 23 11:42 GMT (UK)
The 1851 census in Leeds that was mentioned earlier of Thomas Robertson, has a Sarah Parker listed as his mother and a Widow. William Parker b.1841 is a Half-brother. There are also visitors, a Hart family with the Head born in Africa.

St Bartholomew Parish Register Wednesbury . Staffordshire . 23
Marriage: 21 Jun 1847
Groom: Thomas Robertson . 24 . Bachelor . Brush Maker . Wednesbury
Bride: Sarah Hart . 19 . Spinster . Wednesbury
Groom Father: John Robertson . Cabinet Maker
Bride Father: James Hart . Locksmith
Witnesses John Stokes . Harriet Stokes
    I tried to follow up William Parker b. 1841. Sarah Robertson (nee ??) should have married a Parker about or before 1840. No luck there. Marriages are a rarity in this family. However a William Parker of St, Pancras 1861 census, China Mender, married to Emma Stratton may be the same one.

Following the Hart family led nowhere.

9
Lancashire / Re: Birmingham born in Manchester or Hambleton ?
« on: Saturday 18 February 23 05:10 GMT (UK)  »
     Ellen Birmingham has been a 'brickwall' for many years. Every so often I try to find something new. Born between 1823 and 1829 is all I have. possibly born in Manchester. Mother of 5 children to Thomas Robertson,some of them not registered The last child Harriet Robertson was born in a caravan at Limehouse, London in 1864. Baptised but not registered. Ellen died 1870 in Stepney, London. I have tried to find if her parents came from Ireland, the name being common over there but the main immigration from Ireland took place about 1840. Thomas and Martha Birmingham is the best find so far but without documentation they are just speculation.
       Thomas Robertson is another 'brickwall'. Despite his claims to foreign birth I suspect he was born in Middlesex. I also suspect that he is the same Thomas in 1841 census in Clerkenwell House of Corrections. Having nearly been transported to Australia he led an itinerant life. Not actually a gypsie, just travelled and worked where he could find it.

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