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Messages - Ian79

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Family Crest Identification Help Please!
« on: Thursday 09 April 09 12:28 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the help.

I have had a look through the papers quoted in the link that where donated by the current holder of the arms of George Ryan and can find no reference to service in the Bengal Army shortly before the Mutiny of 1857-59.  Can I then assume that the crest and motto is linked to Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary (the other person mentioned in Burke's Landed Gentry as holding the crest and motto that I have pictured) rather than Inch House?

As I am hopelessly out of my depth with geneological research could somebody point me in the right direction for finding out if male descendants of Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary could have had service in the Bengal Army?  For example, despite the answer being posted above I have no idea how to find out who (and where) the current holder of the arms resides.

Thanks for the help.

Kind Regard

Ian

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Family Crest Identification Help Please!
« on: Monday 06 April 09 20:31 BST (UK)  »
Hi Stephen,

Thanks for the information, the London Gazette search function is a very useful tool.  I have also found out that the East India Company Register and Army List (pre the 1858 Indian Mutiny and the absorbtion of the H.E.I.C into the Crown) is available in full view online on google books (seaching 'East India Company Register and Army List', I am sorry I don't know how to post a link).  The East India Company Register and Army List is the H.E.I.C equivilant of Hart's Army list and gives full details of the officers of the Company in their respective presidencies (Bengal, Madras and Bombay) by regiment.

I am really not sure how to begin linking the crest to the owner beyond the assumptions I started with.  I am attempting to attach an image of the Crest and Motto for  comments, is there any significance to the 'band' like device and knot surrounding the crest, or is it just a decorative way of bordering the image on the blade? 

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Family Crest Identification Help Please!
« on: Thursday 02 April 09 18:14 BST (UK)  »
David and Stephen, thank you both for the help, I wasn't aware of the current holder of the arms or the information from Booleweb.

Since posting I have found that there is another branch of the Ryan family, also from Ireland but not from Inch House, who are has a different coat of arms but the same crest and motto.  Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary, is listed in Burke's Landed Gentry of 1864 with the same motto and crest.

Where do you think I should start in trying to find out the original owner of my sword?  I am a complete novice at researching geneology but know that the sword I now own was made for an officer serving in the Bengal Artillery and must date between 1850 (but most likely 1854) and 1858.  In my novice I initially thought that it must belong to a Ryan and established through the East India Register and Army List (available on google books) that an Edward Henry and Thaddeus Richard Ryan received commissions into the Bengal Artillery in 1857 and 1856 respectively. 

However I can't link either officers (TR or EH Ryan) with either estate mentioned above although this may well (and probably is) because I don't know where to look.  After reading the above two posts I am not entirely sure I was heading along the right lines to begin with and would appreciate any guidance at all. 

Once again thank you for your help.

Ian

 

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Family Crest Identification Help Please!
« on: Wednesday 04 March 09 08:55 GMT (UK)  »
I wonder if you can help, I am trying to identify who had the right to a crest and motto in the 1850's.  This is the very first time that I have ever attempted any family history research and I have a very limited knowledge of heraldry (gleaned over the past few days from the internet and local library) and don't understand a lot of the terminology so feel that I have got as far as I can without some kind soul helping me.

Although I have no idea of the correct terms the crest shows what I would describe as a griffin standing in profile looking to the left and holding a swrd, the motto is "Malo mori quam fodaria".  I have managed to find from a copy of Burke's General Armory (published 1884 I think) and from that think the crest and motto are

Crest: A griffin sergeant az. holding a swrd
Motto: Malo mori quam fodaria

Although the motto appears several times there is only one crest that sounds like the one I can see.  From Burke's the crest and motto appears to belong to George Ryan of Inch House, Co. Tipperary.  Unfortunately the item that holds the crest and motto is dated 1850 - 1858 and this is to late for George Ryan.

Basically I have no idea who this crest and motto belonged to but would like to know if it is possible to trace the person or people who had the right to use it (or if it is generic to the Ryan name)?  I appreciate that there is probably a simple answer but I don't understand about the process of granting crests or if it is possible to trace an individual from one.

The person who carried the crest in the 1850-1858 period was an officer in the East India Company's Bengal Artillery, but in that period there was more than one Ryan serving, hence my desire to know if the crest/motto can be linked to one person (Thaddeus Richard Ryan of Scarteen House, Limerick and Edward Henry Ryan, born in Bengal but possibly of Irish descent are my two contenders).

Sorry for the rambling question but I wanted to get as much information down as I have to find out if there is more available.  Apologies for any cross posting as I initially posted a different question in the Military section but on reflection I think my real question is one of heraldry (I think), so I hope that I have put this in the right place (moderators please feel free to close my other post if you think it appropriate).  Any help at all would be gratefully received.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope that I have made some sense.

Ian

5
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Tracing a person from Crest and Motto
« on: Tuesday 03 March 09 19:32 GMT (UK)  »
Do you think it possible to pin ownership on a Ryan based on the information that I have outlined above?  From the features on the sword (dating from 1850 ish to 1858) and the Burke's Armory linking of the crest and motto to George Ryan I have been looking for a Ryan in the Bengal Artillery.
 
Unfortunately they are two, both cadets in 1856 who enter service 1857 (from the East India Register and Army List), Thaddeus Ryan (from Scarteen House, Ireland) and Edward Ryan (who I think was born in Bengal and was possibly a grandson of Sir Edward Ryan). 

Does the crest and motto apply to both as they have the surname Ryan, or would it be attached to one person or family only?  This is possibly a very daft question but I haven't been able to figure out an answer!

Thanks for the help

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Tracing a person from Crest and Motto
« on: Tuesday 03 March 09 15:49 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Ken,

Thanks for the help.  Unfortunately there is no serial number on the sword.  It is an 1821 light cavalry/artillery officers sword,  I have got to the 1850's date from the fact it has the East India Company lion (pre 1858) on the blade which is of the fullered Wilkinson variety.  The makers mark on the blade appears to be from a gentleman's outfitters rather than a cutler (at least I can't find a cutler of that name) and the proof slug is not very clear.  Sadly the owners initials are not on the blade, just the crest, motto and regimental device (with "Bengal Artillery").

Thanks again.

Ian

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Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Tracing a person from Crest and Motto
« on: Tuesday 03 March 09 12:54 GMT (UK)  »
I wonder if you can help, I am trying to find out if I can trace the owner of a Bengal Artillery Officer's sword by the family crest and motto.  This is the very first time I have ever attempted any family history (although it is not my family) research.  I have no knowledge of heraldry and have tried to find out what I can from the library and the internet but don't understand a lot of the terminology and am therefore more than a little stuck.
 
I have managed to find out from a copy of Burke's General Armoury (published 1884 I think) that the crest and motto appears to be:
 
Crest: A griffin sergeant az. holding a swrd
Motto: Malo mori quam foedari
 
Although I have no idea of the correct terms the crest shows what I would describe as a griffin, standing in profile looking to the left and holding a swrd; the motto occurs in Burke's Armory several times but only once in conjunction with a crest that fits the description above.
 
In Burke's General Armory this is linked to "George Ryan of Inch House, Co. Tipperary".  I have found out that the Bengal Artillery list has two Ryan's in 1857, Thaddeus Richard (from Scarteen House, Limerick) and Edward Henry (born in Bengal possibly the grandson of Sir Edward Ryan who I think was English), both lived into the twentieth century.  My question is who, in the 1850's , would have been allowed to use this crest and motto and if it is possible to link it to one/both or neither of the people that I think it is?
 
I really hope that you can help or give me some pointers as to what I can do now as I am at a complete loss.  Thanks for taking the time to read this.
 
Kind Regards
Ian

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