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Thank you SO much for this help - you’ve managed to break down a big part of this brick wall I was facing. This has already opened up a whole lot new information that I and a distant cousin are now putting together. It does seem to confirm that the ancestry is travellers too which is exciting. Thanks again.

If you have access to Ancestry, see there is a family tree on there for Georgina here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/112868551/person/192306145558/facts

A marriage date of 9 Sep 1874 in Ayrshire is given. I can't see it. Maybe the date has come from their children's birth regs?

Monica

I too have hit a brick wall and I wonder if it is due to the ancestor being from a travelling family. I’d welcome any help, insights or advice. My 2nd G grandfather was called William Docherty. He was born c 1874 in Hamilton (according to his appearance in later Scotland census returns) and died in 1947 in Dumfries where he lived certainly from around 1892 or so. He married in Dumfries a lady called Grace Wilson and I’ve found they’re marriage certificate.

The major problem is that I’ve been unable to find a birth certificate for him at all or his entry on census anywhere in the UK before 1901.

From his marriage certificate his fathers name is recorded as Robert Docherty (deceased) and mother Mary Elizabeth Robertson. There is no record of them anywhere I can find.

Where I did make some progress recently was through ancestry DNA where I identified a distant cousin who it appeared was descended from a brother of William Docherty (James). Intriguingly there is no birth record for him either though his later census returns place his birthplace as Lockerbie c 1870. His marriage certificate states parents as for William but Robertson has come Robinson. 

Finally an intensive search on Scotlands people identified a third sibling, a sister, Alice Agnes, born - according to census details - in Kirkcudbrightshire in c 1864. Again there is no birth certificate for her, though her. She marrries a Lawrence Collins in Castle Douglas in 25 September 1882 and her marriage certificate already says Robert Dougherty (sic!) is dead. Her mother is cited again as Robinson. She dies young in 1889.

So we have three verified siblings, and verified parents but no birth certificates I’ve been able to find and no parents records I’ve been able to find. The traveller connection is through old family stories that suggest Robert was a traveller who met Mary and married in cumbria in a traveller ceremony. Certainly, my ancestor, William, was a horse dealer all his life in Dumfries and was the first man to take Clydesdale horses to Canada. At his funeral apparently all the local traveller families came to pay their respects.

Further updates. I'ms still not really any wiser about John Connor's history befrore he married Marion Darrach. I do know now that he died of TB, not cholera, though. So if anyone can help identify his backstory I'd be grateful.

I have since discovered though, that two of his sons subsequently joined the army - the same regiment though it was the KOSB by then. William and Thomas both signed up and spent time in India.

William joined 1893 and spent time in India and Burma before being discharged in 1905. His medal can be seen here: https://www.mortonandeden.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/83.pdf

Thomas signed up in 1891 but was invalided out towards the end of the 1890s with TB. I cannot find any trace of either of them once they've been discharged sadly.

I've been away from this here a while but recently had time to do a little more digging and have uncovered some more facts and dates.

Marion Darroch did indeed marry John Connor, a private in the 25th foot in Glasgow in 1868. From various sources I've pieced together their movements. Seems they went to possibly Aldershot where they had a son, John, in 1869 then went to India. Soon after, my ancestor, Mary was born in 1871, followed by Thomas (1873 in Naini Tal) and William (1877 in Fyzabad).

John Connor dies 3 September 1877 in Fyzebad - possibly as a result of a cholera epidemic that was sweeping the area then.

Marion clearly stays in Indoa and takes up with Thomas Septimus Woodman, also  private in 25th foot, and she marries him 11/10/1878 in Fyzebad. They are in the 1881 census at the military barracks in York (with her children by John Connor, all called Woodman).

They later appear on the Scottish census of 1891 in Kinning Park, Glasgow where Thomas has clearly retired from the army and they have other children.

Still not sure of there is anything more on John Connor's life or history to be gleaned or iof that is about the limits of possible knowledge.

Quote from: km1971 on Thursday 12 November 09 18:19 GMT (UK)

Hi Alasdair

It was the 1st Battalion that was in Glasgow in 1868, having returned from Canada the previous year. They moved around the British Isles until Oct 1875 when they moved to India. The 2nd Battalion were in Ceylon/India from 1863 to 1876, so it looks as if he was transferred to the 2nd Bn in time for his daughter’s birth

If he died in service they would have routinely destroyed his record after 20 years. But the best next step would be to see if his service record survives in Kew. If you cannot visit and do not wish to pay a researcher, you will have to wait to see if Findmypast put it online (due ‘by 2011’). How it is filed will depend upon when he was discharged – http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

Most men were discharged 12 years after enlistment, so were aged between the ages of 30 and 35 depending upon when they enlisted.  Service before the age of 18 did not count. His service record will give you an outline of him and his service, but it probably will not give details of his wife and children.

If his record does not survive you can follow his service using the Muster Books (WO12) in Kew, starting with the one for the 1st Bn in 1868 and working backwards until he enlisted; and then working forwards from the 2nd Bn muster for 1870-71 until he dies or is discharged. You may be lucky as they started to include details of the marriage roll – wife’s forename and ages of any children – in the musters from around this period. His first entry may give his parish of birth, and/or where he enlisted and maybe his age.

Ken

Hi there, been away from here for a while and sorry I missed this reply. I've just not had a chance I'm afraid to do any further digging on Mabel Maude.

I did track down Harry Coleman's descendents and we're now connected on facebook!! But they had no idea about the rest of his fanmily at all which is disappointing.