28
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Wednesday 18 January 12 01:00 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Shane. It's 2am here - just home. I'll look at the death notice archives tomorrow and see what they charge.
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29
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Tuesday 17 January 12 16:49 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tara.
This is a tricky one. Here's the burial record
Glasnevin Trust - Genealogy search results
There are 5 people buried in the same grave
Record Number 1
Record number: V58198
Surname: MONKS
Firstname: PETER
Last address: 55 KIRWAN STREET COTTAGES
-
DUBLIN
-
Buried Glasnevin
Grave: Letter: RA
Figures: 18
Section: SOUTH
Date of death 04 Apr 1884
Ceremony type Burial
Age 58
Gender -
Record Number 2
Record number: 313843
Surname: MONKS
Firstname: MARY
Last address: 16, LOWER DORSET STREET,
DUBLIN.
-
-
Buried Glasnevin
Grave: Letter: RA
Figures: 18
Section: SOUTH
Date of death 07 Jun 1906
Ceremony type Burial
Age 71
Gender -
As you can see, the record of Glasnevin is quite clear, but like you, I can find nothing in the Census for 1901. I found nothing either on Irish Genealogy for the burial.
Is there a possibility that someone could look up a directory, please to see if Mary Monks is recorded as living at 16 Lower Dorset Street prior to her death?
I suppose it is always possible she was visiting elsewhere at the time the census was to be taken. Grasping at straws? Perhaps in hospital - or jail?
Is there a newspaper obituary database that might confirm Glasnevin's record?
This is a tricky one. Here's the burial record
Glasnevin Trust - Genealogy search results
There are 5 people buried in the same grave
Record Number 1
Record number: V58198
Surname: MONKS
Firstname: PETER
Last address: 55 KIRWAN STREET COTTAGES
-
DUBLIN
-
Buried Glasnevin
Grave: Letter: RA
Figures: 18
Section: SOUTH
Date of death 04 Apr 1884
Ceremony type Burial
Age 58
Gender -
Record Number 2
Record number: 313843
Surname: MONKS
Firstname: MARY
Last address: 16, LOWER DORSET STREET,
DUBLIN.
-
-
Buried Glasnevin
Grave: Letter: RA
Figures: 18
Section: SOUTH
Date of death 07 Jun 1906
Ceremony type Burial
Age 71
Gender -
As you can see, the record of Glasnevin is quite clear, but like you, I can find nothing in the Census for 1901. I found nothing either on Irish Genealogy for the burial.
Is there a possibility that someone could look up a directory, please to see if Mary Monks is recorded as living at 16 Lower Dorset Street prior to her death?
I suppose it is always possible she was visiting elsewhere at the time the census was to be taken. Grasping at straws? Perhaps in hospital - or jail?
Is there a newspaper obituary database that might confirm Glasnevin's record?
30
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Tuesday 17 January 12 13:42 GMT (UK) »
I have found a Mary Monks died in 1906 aged 71. This would give a year of birth of 1835. It makes her about 10 years younger than Peter. In the time we were considering an Anne Hyland as wife II, we were surmising that this Mary Monks might have been a sister to Peter. The discovery of Mary White opens the possibility that this is actually that Mary White-Monks - the real wife II. She is buried in Peter's grave in Glasnevin, which seems to make it even more likely than an previously unknown sister. It would be nice to be able to get confirmation. But it does seem a step in the right direction.
Interestingly, although buried in the grave, Mary Monks is not mentioined on the headstone. My father always maintained the Peter's second wife could have been buried elsewhere. it appears, reading between the line that she inherited Peter's substance, and this did not go down well with son Nicholas... That hints at bad realtions between him and his stepmother, which could account for his neglecting to have her name engraved.
Zig-zag, have you any thoughts on this?
Interestingly, although buried in the grave, Mary Monks is not mentioined on the headstone. My father always maintained the Peter's second wife could have been buried elsewhere. it appears, reading between the line that she inherited Peter's substance, and this did not go down well with son Nicholas... That hints at bad realtions between him and his stepmother, which could account for his neglecting to have her name engraved.
Zig-zag, have you any thoughts on this?
31
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Tuesday 17 January 12 13:03 GMT (UK) »
@ Myluick,
Oh dear. I fear I may be descended from Henry VIII mark II
Re Nicholas who married Mary Lyster, he is indeed the son of Peter the Much Married - but by Peter's first wife, Anne (surname not known). Actually, I did consider a third marriage, but that would depend on how long Mary White lived - or bigamy!
So far I have not found any indication of her death, or of bigamy on Peter's part. I am, however, trawling through a mountain of papers to see if I can locate the burial record of a Mary Monks that does not fit into the picture as we understood it . It well could be that this is Mary White. That would give us a date and clarify Peter's position as monogamist, bigamist or trigamist.
I was not so sure of the geography, so the run down on the proximity of the places is particularly helpful. Thanks. It may throw light on some matters.
As to Thomas Monks and Brid Harland... Perhaps multiple marriages run in the family. I'll check it out. Again thanks!
Oh dear. I fear I may be descended from Henry VIII mark II
Re Nicholas who married Mary Lyster, he is indeed the son of Peter the Much Married - but by Peter's first wife, Anne (surname not known). Actually, I did consider a third marriage, but that would depend on how long Mary White lived - or bigamy!
So far I have not found any indication of her death, or of bigamy on Peter's part. I am, however, trawling through a mountain of papers to see if I can locate the burial record of a Mary Monks that does not fit into the picture as we understood it . It well could be that this is Mary White. That would give us a date and clarify Peter's position as monogamist, bigamist or trigamist.I was not so sure of the geography, so the run down on the proximity of the places is particularly helpful. Thanks. It may throw light on some matters.
As to Thomas Monks and Brid Harland... Perhaps multiple marriages run in the family. I'll check it out. Again thanks!
32
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Monday 16 January 12 20:24 GMT (UK) »
@ Shane
Thanks you for that information. I will pass it to a contact in Dublin who may be able to check out if there is anything that touches our search. I fear, though, that there will not. My information - always subject to check - is that Thomas Monks died in 1845, so it seem not possible he could be recorded there. his sone, Peter, was born in 1824 and moved to Dublin. I cannot see then, that he would feature in the record. Likewise, the second son of Thomas, James, was born in 1833, did not marry (as far as we know) and died in Co. Meath. It is unlikely therefore that he would feature in the record. I will be going to the meath forum to make enquiries there about Ardcath and the Workhouse in Dunshaughlin.
Thanks again
@ Taramc
I do appreciate your kind interest and help!
I have looked at the O'Toole/Monks marriage record. As matters stand I cannot link it to my family. If the actual record were available it might give something that would ring a bell. But for the present I cannot place a Catherine Monks or a marriage to an O'Toole. That said, the involvement of a Peter and Anne Monks does picque the interest.
Peter Monks, my gggrandfather lived from 1824 (possibly 1826) to 1884. I can only link him to two children, Nicholas (1850 - 1902) and Alicia ([possibly also known as Anne: maybe even Alicia Anne) for whom, as yet, I have no date of birth. I need to get a death cert for her and that should give her age. Her mother (Anne) was born in 1819; Nicholas her son in 1850, so Alicia/Anne possibly before 1860. Put the case that she was 20 when she married (5 Oct 1873) then she would have been born in 1853.... grasping at straws here. The 1901/1911 Censuses should reveal something.... I did spot the Hyland Witness. However, I am at a loss as to how to link it in. the record clearly shows Peter Monks married Mary White. He died 10 years later... Hardly much time to take on another wife and vye with Henry the 8th
I cannot see Alice Monks of Dunshaughlin coming into the picture just now. Could she have been the Alicia married to Thomas Monks? It is possible, although he is estimated to have been born in 1790, so there is a question of a difference of 8 years between them, she being the older. Not impossible. However, the only link I have with Dunshaughlin is James Monks who died in the workhouse there. Perhaps, if she were Thomas's wife, she retired to Dunshaughlin in her widowhood.
Thanks you for that information. I will pass it to a contact in Dublin who may be able to check out if there is anything that touches our search. I fear, though, that there will not. My information - always subject to check - is that Thomas Monks died in 1845, so it seem not possible he could be recorded there. his sone, Peter, was born in 1824 and moved to Dublin. I cannot see then, that he would feature in the record. Likewise, the second son of Thomas, James, was born in 1833, did not marry (as far as we know) and died in Co. Meath. It is unlikely therefore that he would feature in the record. I will be going to the meath forum to make enquiries there about Ardcath and the Workhouse in Dunshaughlin.
Thanks again
@ Taramc
I do appreciate your kind interest and help!
I have looked at the O'Toole/Monks marriage record. As matters stand I cannot link it to my family. If the actual record were available it might give something that would ring a bell. But for the present I cannot place a Catherine Monks or a marriage to an O'Toole. That said, the involvement of a Peter and Anne Monks does picque the interest.
Peter Monks, my gggrandfather lived from 1824 (possibly 1826) to 1884. I can only link him to two children, Nicholas (1850 - 1902) and Alicia ([possibly also known as Anne: maybe even Alicia Anne) for whom, as yet, I have no date of birth. I need to get a death cert for her and that should give her age. Her mother (Anne) was born in 1819; Nicholas her son in 1850, so Alicia/Anne possibly before 1860. Put the case that she was 20 when she married (5 Oct 1873) then she would have been born in 1853.... grasping at straws here. The 1901/1911 Censuses should reveal something.... I did spot the Hyland Witness. However, I am at a loss as to how to link it in. the record clearly shows Peter Monks married Mary White. He died 10 years later... Hardly much time to take on another wife and vye with Henry the 8th
I cannot see Alice Monks of Dunshaughlin coming into the picture just now. Could she have been the Alicia married to Thomas Monks? It is possible, although he is estimated to have been born in 1790, so there is a question of a difference of 8 years between them, she being the older. Not impossible. However, the only link I have with Dunshaughlin is James Monks who died in the workhouse there. Perhaps, if she were Thomas's wife, she retired to Dunshaughlin in her widowhood.
33
Dublin / Re: Monks/White
« on: Monday 16 January 12 17:11 GMT (UK) »
Wow! What a great place this is! I certainly never expected so many replies with so much information, and so quickly! I'll comment separately to the replies.
@ Shane
Thanks for that information. I'll have to get round to that over the next few days. A pity about the marriage cert's likely lack of an age for Mary White. There is an unexplained Mary in one of the Monks graves in Glasnevin, and it could be this lady. I'll use that as a starting point. It may save a lot of searching.
I've learned a lesson here. Beware of the information that is passed down through the family. I've been worrying a problem that was based on wrong information.
Can I take it that you are speaking generally about records when you mention 1857, or are you referring specifically to Garristown? In the past I made approaches to the parish and was told the records were either not available or were somewhere else - several places were mentioned, Rolestown, Grallagh are two that come to mind. It was a long time ago and I never got around to checking these out as I was working very long hours - and later I was preparing to move here.
@ Tarmc,
thanks to you too for the info you have given. As I said above, I will see about getting the cert.
I did manage to get as far as the transcription of the marriage details, in which Mary White's mother's name is given simply as Mary. For some reason I could not get into the actual record. (I did update the adobe.) I'll go there again this evening and see if I can fare better than last time.
The Latin is Mortui Sunt - they are dead. I had no way of knowing this from the transcription. Soemthing to watch out for in the future. That allows Thomas Monks to fall back into the timeframe that we had always assumed with no need to allow for unlikely length of days on his or his wife's part.
The Alicia you found (Marriage to Peter Branagan 1873) is actually the daughter of Peter, who married Mary White Anne monks (decd 1870) was Peter's first wife. Mary was his second. My father's papers give Alicia as Ann. The tow names beginning with the same letter may have led to a lapsus memoriae. Alicia as daughter of Peter would fit well with common practice that a child would be named after its grandparent of the child's sex. Thus, we have
Thomas m. Alicia
|
Peter m. Anne (first wife) m. Mary White in 1874
|
Alicia m. Branagan in 1873
So far as we know Peter had only one brother, James. This is the one who sold the (interest in) the land at Tubbergregan, Garristown. This James is supposed to have done so have done so after his brother died. The sale is recorded by my father as being illegal, as James was supposed to have no title to the land. The sale was handled by an auctioneer, O'Connor, in 1887 (? I need to check that date). He is then thought to have gone to America and spent his 'ill-gotten' gains; to have come home a pauper and spent his last years in the Workhouse in Dunshaughlin where he died in 1895. I have been unable to find any evidence for this, although Meath County Library did a check on it for me. The final touch to this tale is that my father's father and uncle are reputed to have had James's remaind exhumed from the Workhouse burial plat and re-buried in the churchyard in Ardcath, Co. Meath in 1901. I have searched Ardcath on visits to Ireland but could find nothing. That said, many stone are toppled - impossible to lift without machinery, so any inscriptions are illegible or unavailable. I could find no record of burials as far back as 1901.
You have helped me advance quite a bit further in the quest. Many thanks!
@ Myluck
Yes, I agree. Alicia was Peter's daughter. She was his second child by his first wife, Anne, d. 1870. (The first was Nicholas b. 1850 ). Thomas would have been her grandfather.
BTW, this Alicia apeears to have died in 1933. More research to be done on her!
Thanks for your helpful input, and for the anecdote. Families can be complicated.
@ Shane
Thanks for that information. I'll have to get round to that over the next few days. A pity about the marriage cert's likely lack of an age for Mary White. There is an unexplained Mary in one of the Monks graves in Glasnevin, and it could be this lady. I'll use that as a starting point. It may save a lot of searching.
I've learned a lesson here. Beware of the information that is passed down through the family. I've been worrying a problem that was based on wrong information.
Can I take it that you are speaking generally about records when you mention 1857, or are you referring specifically to Garristown? In the past I made approaches to the parish and was told the records were either not available or were somewhere else - several places were mentioned, Rolestown, Grallagh are two that come to mind. It was a long time ago and I never got around to checking these out as I was working very long hours - and later I was preparing to move here.
@ Tarmc,
thanks to you too for the info you have given. As I said above, I will see about getting the cert.
I did manage to get as far as the transcription of the marriage details, in which Mary White's mother's name is given simply as Mary. For some reason I could not get into the actual record. (I did update the adobe.) I'll go there again this evening and see if I can fare better than last time.
The Latin is Mortui Sunt - they are dead. I had no way of knowing this from the transcription. Soemthing to watch out for in the future. That allows Thomas Monks to fall back into the timeframe that we had always assumed with no need to allow for unlikely length of days on his or his wife's part.
The Alicia you found (Marriage to Peter Branagan 1873) is actually the daughter of Peter, who married Mary White Anne monks (decd 1870) was Peter's first wife. Mary was his second. My father's papers give Alicia as Ann. The tow names beginning with the same letter may have led to a lapsus memoriae. Alicia as daughter of Peter would fit well with common practice that a child would be named after its grandparent of the child's sex. Thus, we have
Thomas m. Alicia
|
Peter m. Anne (first wife) m. Mary White in 1874
|
Alicia m. Branagan in 1873
So far as we know Peter had only one brother, James. This is the one who sold the (interest in) the land at Tubbergregan, Garristown. This James is supposed to have done so have done so after his brother died. The sale is recorded by my father as being illegal, as James was supposed to have no title to the land. The sale was handled by an auctioneer, O'Connor, in 1887 (? I need to check that date). He is then thought to have gone to America and spent his 'ill-gotten' gains; to have come home a pauper and spent his last years in the Workhouse in Dunshaughlin where he died in 1895. I have been unable to find any evidence for this, although Meath County Library did a check on it for me. The final touch to this tale is that my father's father and uncle are reputed to have had James's remaind exhumed from the Workhouse burial plat and re-buried in the churchyard in Ardcath, Co. Meath in 1901. I have searched Ardcath on visits to Ireland but could find nothing. That said, many stone are toppled - impossible to lift without machinery, so any inscriptions are illegible or unavailable. I could find no record of burials as far back as 1901.
You have helped me advance quite a bit further in the quest. Many thanks!
@ Myluck
Yes, I agree. Alicia was Peter's daughter. She was his second child by his first wife, Anne, d. 1870. (The first was Nicholas b. 1850 ). Thomas would have been her grandfather.
BTW, this Alicia apeears to have died in 1933. More research to be done on her!
Thanks for your helpful input, and for the anecdote. Families can be complicated.
34
Dublin / Monks/White
« on: Sunday 15 January 12 21:57 GMT (UK) »
see: Monks/?/Hyland/Lister/Cahill 6 Aug 2010 thread
In the thread referenced above many people took quite a lot of trouble to help me when I was researching my g.g.grandfather, Peter Monks's second marriage. The information from my father's papers was that his first wife, Anne Monks (née?) died in 1870 and he married again - another Anne (née Hyland). It was all to no avail - and no wonder!
With the greater availability of documents on Irish Genealogy, I have been able to identify his second marriage. It was to Mary White of 44 Bolton Street. I was on a wrong track altogether. (Thanks Dad! )
The position now is that Peter Monks of 2 Ryder's Row married Mary White of 44 Bolton Street on 11 January 1874. Peter was aged 49/50 at this time.
I'd like to find out more about Mary White
Irish Genealogy also solved another matter. The name of Peter's father was always in question. The marriage record, however, confirms it to have been Thomas Monks. We have always believed that he was born about 1790 in Tubbergregan, Garristown, and Peter's birth in 1824 would fit well with this. This would make him about 84 at the time of the marriage! However, while not impossible, it would seem unlikely that he should live so long in those days. I have been unable to come across a record of his death, so far. BTW, his wife, also at the marriage, was Alicia. This seems to be pointing to a later birth for Thomas... It would be satisfying to have something more accurate.
Also, family lore maintains there were two earlier generations at Tubbergregan. I have found nothing on this. Can anyone help, please? I can't readily get to records not on line as I don't live in Ireland.
Can anyone help with my queries about my ggstepgrandmother and her parent, and also with my ggggrandfather.
I take the opportunity to wish all a great 2012.
In the thread referenced above many people took quite a lot of trouble to help me when I was researching my g.g.grandfather, Peter Monks's second marriage. The information from my father's papers was that his first wife, Anne Monks (née?) died in 1870 and he married again - another Anne (née Hyland). It was all to no avail - and no wonder!
With the greater availability of documents on Irish Genealogy, I have been able to identify his second marriage. It was to Mary White of 44 Bolton Street. I was on a wrong track altogether. (Thanks Dad!
)The position now is that Peter Monks of 2 Ryder's Row married Mary White of 44 Bolton Street on 11 January 1874. Peter was aged 49/50 at this time.
I'd like to find out more about Mary White
- - how old was she when she wed?
- when did she die?
- What was her father's occupation?
Irish Genealogy also solved another matter. The name of Peter's father was always in question. The marriage record, however, confirms it to have been Thomas Monks. We have always believed that he was born about 1790 in Tubbergregan, Garristown, and Peter's birth in 1824 would fit well with this. This would make him about 84 at the time of the marriage! However, while not impossible, it would seem unlikely that he should live so long in those days. I have been unable to come across a record of his death, so far. BTW, his wife, also at the marriage, was Alicia. This seems to be pointing to a later birth for Thomas... It would be satisfying to have something more accurate.
Also, family lore maintains there were two earlier generations at Tubbergregan. I have found nothing on this. Can anyone help, please? I can't readily get to records not on line as I don't live in Ireland.
Can anyone help with my queries about my ggstepgrandmother and her parent, and also with my ggggrandfather.
I take the opportunity to wish all a great 2012.
35
Dublin / Re: Descendants of Lyons/McDowell family
« on: Friday 07 October 11 10:02 BST (UK) »
Johnstonville & Johnjensen,
I was very happy to be able to make some contribution, especially as I have been on the receiving end of some very generous help here.
All the best to both of you.
David.
I was very happy to be able to make some contribution, especially as I have been on the receiving end of some very generous help here.
All the best to both of you.
David.
36
Dublin / Re: Descendants of Lyons/McDowell family
« on: Thursday 06 October 11 22:01 BST (UK) »
Hello John, I am not clear if the casualties of the Dardanelles are recorded at Ypres. Can you verify this?
The Lyons on the Commonwealth War Graves headstone cannot be the one in question as the Glasnevin stone specifically says Dardanelles and gives the date as 3rd October. The actual year is not quite legible - hence the question mark in my previous posting.
The Lyons on the Commonwealth War Graves headstone cannot be the one in question as the Glasnevin stone specifically says Dardanelles and gives the date as 3rd October. The actual year is not quite legible - hence the question mark in my previous posting.