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Messages - TadlowNewell

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19
Devon Lookup Requests / Why this odd 1807 Devonport Wesleyan Bapt for Mary Nodder?
« on: Wednesday 24 August 22 19:53 BST (UK)  »
In Ancestry, at

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/160990:2972?tid=178469862&pid=302318688977&queryId=9fbe23a5032fce6b670b5f305ded5e89&_phsrc=ZCy4&_phstart=successSource

you can (if you have a subscription) see a page of the Morice Street Wesleyan Methodist Chapel  Baptism records. (I have not attached the page image in case of a copyright issue)

I have three closely-related questions:

1. One entry on the page - for Mary Nodder - is different from the rest in having no details apart from her parents names. Instead there is a blank space, almost as if something has been deleted or deliberately omitted. Curious!! Any ideas why? Of course, Mary is the person I am interested in. Sod's Law! There is no issue of illegitimacy etc involved as this is the sixth (of seven) children born to Joseph Elias and Arminell, and all seven were baptised in this Chapel and the other six provide dates both of baptism and of birth. Mary also did not die in infancy - she lived for 54 years until 1861 - so it probably wasn't any sort of 'emergency' baptism.

2. The entries on the page are only very roughly in order of baptism date. I cannot think of any way this could happen in a register. Any ideas?

3. Finally, does anyone know of any other source which would allow me to pinpoint Mary Nodder's precise birth date? I have searched quite hard with no joy, but I don't have the skills or knowledge of many of you Rootschatter experts.

Two thoughts:

It could be that the document scanned by Ancestry is actually a transcript, not the 'original' baptism register. Certainly the handwriting is all the same... The description of the source in Ancestry does not, though, say it was a transcript. Instead it states it comes from "Registers of Births, Marriages and Deaths surrendered to the Non-parochial Registers Commissions of 1837 and 1857".

I do know that the Chapel in Morice St was not actually built until 1807 (the year of Mary's baptism). Before then the congregation met in the “‘Higher Room’ in Princes Street where workers from the parent Ker Street Wesleyan Methodist Chapel began services.” (Source: https://www.olddevonport.uk/Morice%20Street%20Wesleyan%20Methodist%20Chapel.htm). Hence could it possibly be that baptisms were undertaken in two locations around this time, but there was only one shared register...? I'm clutching at straws!

Thanks in advance.


20
For future readers who might come across this thread while researching the Nodder or Slark family, here is a quote from this website which I recently stumbled across. It adds a bit more detail about the Slark(s) 'family'.

https://www.familytreecircles.com/u/ngairedith/?&next=505

"John Slakes married Lucy Clark on 21 July 1833 at Brenchley, Kent. They had a daughter, Sarah Jane 'Sal' Slarks (1834-1899). They had a son John Slarkes in 1837. On the 8 Jan 1841 they sailed from London on the Lord William Bentinck, arriving in Port Nicholson 19 May 1841

* Daughter Sarah married Joseph Hilborne James in St Peter's, Wellington 23 Sep 1865. In Jan 1871 Sarah James, alias Sal Slarks was charged for drunkenness for the 31st time and again sent to prison with hard labor. At times, she & her father were charged together. In Jan 1873 Sarah was sentenced to 3 months hard labor. She died of a stroke aged 64 & buried Karori

* Son John married Martha Burkett (1839-1882). In Feb 1866, his wife Martha, with whom he was not living, and Thomas Nodder, were charged with having committed an assault upon John. He said he had occasion to correct one of their children, when his wife came in and pulled him to the ground and struck him several times on the head with a gutter spike. Nodder came in, knelt down and commenced punching him under the ribs. One night in Aug 1866 Martha was in Mrs Dixon's house in the Wairarapa

Wellington Independent, 11 March 1865 John and Lucy Slarks, an aged couple (52 & 49), were charged with keeping a brothel. The jury returned a verdict of 'Guilty' and his honor's sentence was that John Slarks be imprisoned for two years with hard labor and Lucy Slarks for eighteen months with hard labor. A few days after release Lucy was in front of the judge charged with drunkenness
In June 1872 at about midnight, John was lying dead drunk on the floor of his cottage at Kaiwarra when his neighbour, having been shaken awake by his children, broke into his house through a window to find him lying in the middle of smoke and flames.

NZ Mail, 20 Dec 1873 The other day an old woman (57) named Lucy Slarks came to a sad and untimely end, after a long course of hopeless dissipation. Some men passing along the Hutt road at an early hour in the morning found what at first sight might have been mistaken for a bundle of dirty rags lying on the road side, but on nearer inspection it proved to be the lifeless corpse of a woman, by whose side lay an unfinished bottle of beer. Facts subsequently disclosed show that the unfortunate creature had dissipated her husband's weekly wages in a drunken carouse, had staggered about the road, trying in vain to walk along the Hutt Road to Ngahauranga, every now and then falling, at last falling and striking her head against a stone, never becoming conscious and was found the next morning having died in a fit of apoplexy.
.. 3 weeks later ..
Evening Post, 15 Jan 1874 The body of a man named Slarks was washed ashore at Kaiwarra. The clothes of the unfortunate man have been recognised as belonging to John Slarks, husband of Lucy Slarks, who a few weeks back was picked up dead near the same place. The clothes were identified by a daughter of the deceased. The cause was ruled a suicide probably borne down by grief, consequent upon the melancholy circumstances of the death of his wife. "

21
Thanks for the clues, Osprey. Most helpful, as all Rootschatters always are.

Just for completeness, for future readers of this thread, I found a third Nodder's will, namely that of Joseph Nodder, a Mason who latterly turned to brewing and running a pub which he named 'The Mason's Arms'. He died 1851

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-682Q-8X?i=666&cat=329778
also the previous two pages.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-682Q-PN?i=665&cat=329778
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-682W-XR?i=664&cat=329778

Thanks again.

22
Hi Osprey. That is very useful, and tantalising. Can you explain how you searched for that, please.

I know Family Search Catalog quite well, and use it lots for parish registers, but have never found will/probate type information.

23
Thanks Comberton, That is very interesting as I had not come across 'Cornwall Memorial Inscriptions' until now. It sounds like a useful and reliable source. It may even entice me to buy a sub to FindMyPast for a while. They seem to be available in several places but nowhere free.

I am aware Thomas's will exists and is available for £15 from Kresen Kernow. It is also mentioned in the Cornwall OPC wills index as follows:

Year   1857
Forename   Thomas
Surname   NODDER
Description   postman
Parish   Antony
Abode   Antony
Reference   AP/N/1188
Film Number   2220901
Image Range   759-812
Reference Range   AP/N/1174-1188
Transcriber   John Evans

24
I know from GRO indexes that Thomas Nodder died Q4 1857, St German's Registration District.
Many Public Trees on Ancestry give his date of death as 17 Nov 1857, but others quote 12th October. As so often, no-one cites any primary source to support either date; everyone is blindly copying each other. I could resolve the issue by buying his death certificate, but before I do so, I wonder if anyone here can confirm his date of death?
 
It is just possible he died 12 October and was buried 17 Nov, but such a long gap seems very implausible to me. The parish burial records for Antony are not available online via Family Search 'Catalog'. 

25
Thanks all for looking at this. I didn't expect a breakthrough, but it was worth a try. Two other things.

First, I have now checked  my database about Joseph Bounsall. He was baptised 5 Nov 1737 in Launceston; married Arminell Angell 27 Jun 1761 in St Alphege in Greenwich, London. Their first son, James (who was I'm sure witness at later marriage to Sara Mortimore) was born 1762 in Holborn, London; Their second son, John was baptised at St Martin in the Fields 11 Mar 1764. This ties in with them being witnesses at marriage there in 1763 mentioned below. Later children were born in Devon, so it seems the family moved back there from London around 1765/66.

Second I have raised a query with the folk who run the impressively extensive Mortimer/Mortimore family history website. Their section on Plymouth is at https://mortimerhistory.com/mortimer-family-tree/devon/south-devon/plymouth/. If I hear back from them with anything interesting I shall post it here.

Thanks again for your help.

26
Devon / Re: Can anyone find anything about Sarah Mortimore, marrying Plymouth, 1789
« on: Saturday 05 March 22 23:14 GMT (UK)  »
Hillhurst is correct. I suspect Joseph served hi apprenticeship in London though I have no primary evidence of that. They also married and had first child there if memory serves - I'm on phone not near laptop.

27
Devon / Can anyone find anything about Sarah Mortimore, marrying Plymouth, 1789
« on: Saturday 05 March 22 20:15 GMT (UK)  »
Sarah Mortimore married Joseph Bounsall, a Tailor, in Plymouth, Charles the Martyr church on 15 Sep 1789. An image of the marriage record can be found here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC9B-G8K

I know quite a lot about Joseph Bounsall, but can find nothing at all about Sarah, except that the couple produced at least three children together (Henry 1790; Sarah 1792; Catherine 1798). Hence Sarah must have been born around 1755 - 1775. I hope some clever Rootschatter can unearth more.

Joseph Bounsall (1737-1808) was first married to Arminell Angell and they had 8 children together 1762-1779 before Arminell died in 1788. Note Joseph would have been 52 at the time of his marriage to Sarah Mortimore.

I am especially interested in finding out who Sarah was because her daughter Catherine married Richard Ackland in 1818 and they have produced many descendants, many of whom have created 'Public' trees on Ancestry and almost all have, incorrectly I believe, recorded Catherine as being the illegitimate daughter of Joseph Bounsall (1779-1849) a cordwainer and the son of the Joseph Bounsall mentioned above, with one Sarah Carpenter. I would love to be able to prove them wrong. Hopefully someone can help me.

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