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Messages - lancaster.jim

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37
Lancashire / Re: Baptised Twice
« on: Wednesday 15 June 16 20:18 BST (UK)  »

Thanks to Gardener for the comment -

> But her mother Alice was still alive in 1891 - you would have thought that she would know about the first baptism? Assuming that they were talking ;-)

This prompted me to look at what I had written and I should have written -

> nor any other PILLING burials in this grave.

I had not checked for any other names.  I have now and the table below lists all the burials I can find in that grave in order of their burial -

Forenames Surname  Abode    Date   Year   Age   Calc YoBirth
Jesse Waterhouse     Elton    08-Dec   1863   13   1850
Jesse Pilling          Elton    03-Dec   1878   5m   1878
John Waterhouse      Elton    06-Nov   1879   1   1878
John Waterhouse      Elton    17-Jul   1880   63   1817
Sarah Ann Pilling       Elton    20-Dec   1882   27   1855
Alice Waterhouse       Birtle   29-Jun   1892   68   1824
Emma Waterhouse    Elton    24-Mar   1894   36   1858

With the help of Census data you can probably arrange these in a family structure, particularly if you relate these persons to information from LancashireBMD.

I was puzzled originally by the place of death of Alice Waterhouse - Birtle.  This is on the east side of Bury and was originally a township in the parish of Middleton.

It is possible that Alice died in the Union Workhouse which was built at Jericho in Birtle in the 1850s and which by this date had some hospital facilities - some details are to be found at http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Bury/   Her death certificate should give fuller details of the place of death.

None of this begins to explain why the family did not know about Sarah Ann's baptism as an infant.  May be Sarah Ann's mother was already in the workhouse (known as Jericho) and perhaps the family were just not sure if she was or was not baptised.

Hope this helps

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

38
Lancashire / Re: Baptised Twice
« on: Wednesday 15 June 16 12:08 BST (UK)  »
You ask about Sarah Ann WATERHOUSE who was baptised 'twice'.  The first time at All Saints, Elton, in 1855, and then in 1882 at St Stephen's, Elton.  All Saints, Elton was established ca 1840 to serve the Elton Township on the west side of Bury and St Stephen's was established in about 1870 as a daughter school chapel about half a mile further west to ensure that a Board School was not established in the area.

The graveyard at All Saints, Elton, was the principal graveyard in Elton.

Possible reasons for the second 'baptism' are (1) her wanting to be confirmed and not being sure of her baptism or (2) her being seriously ill and in danger of death and her family not being sure she was baptised.  The latter has been suggested by Brentor Boy and is the more likely in view of  her death in December 1882.

The extracts of the baptism Registers that I have show -

All Saints, Elton, Bury.  Sarah Ann Waterhouse dau of John and Alice Waterhouse, of Cockey Lane, Labourer born 10-Mar 1855 bapt 22-Mar 1855

St Stephen's, Elton, Bury.  Sarah Ann Waterhouse dau of John and Alice Waterhouse and now wife of Aaron Pilling, of Peers St, Elton, Block Printer/Jnr   born 10-Mar 1855 bapt 06-Nov 1882

I have not seen the original entries.

As has been said, Sarah Ann married Aaron PILLING in All Saints in 1875 and there were three children of this marriage all baptised at All Saints -

Name      Father   Mother      Born      Baptised
James   Pilling   Aaron   Sarah Ann   18-Jun   1876   14-Jul   1876
Jesse   Pilling   Aaron   Sarah Ann   16-Jun   1878   24-Aug   1878
Elizabeth Alice   Pilling   Aaron   Sarah Ann  18-Dec 1880   19-Mar   1881

The middle child, Jesse, was buried in All Saints graveyard 3 Dec 1878 aged 5 months.

Sarah Ann was also buried in the same grave on 20 Dec 1882, aged 27years.  There does not appear to be a memorial stone on this grave, nor any other burials in this grave.

ASE   2174      1328      Sarah Ann   Pilling      Elton   B   20-Dec   1882   27   1855

It is possible that Sarah Ann MIGHT have died as the result of problems in pregnancy - though that is a guess.  Obtaining her death certificate will show the official cause of death


There is an entry in Lancashirebmd (http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/deathind.cgi ) that could be your Aaron

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1923
Surname, Forename(s); Age; Sub-District, Registers At; Reference
PILLING   Aaron              70      Elton   Bury                    ELT/40/14

This person is not buried in All Saints graveyard.

Hope this helps

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)


39
Following on from what Garstonite has written, there are several underlying reasons for surname variations. 

If a person cannot read or write, their name is what they SAY it is and the scribe has to record it as best he can.  The scribe may read back what he has written and the person will agree.  This oral transmission can give rise to even greater problems if the person giving the name has a strong accent.

The current practice of having a ‘celebration’ after a baptism is quite new – within the last 30 years.   At the time in question, the late 1800s, it is likely that the infant was taken to church by its godparents and the parents would not attend, and there would be no party afterwards.  Thus it would the the godparents who would tell the priest the names of the child.  The Catholic community in Liverpool at that time was mainly Irish but from all over Ireland, so there would be many different accents.  This would increase the possible number of spelling of any one name.  You will be familiar with the variants of your own name.

My local church registers include a marriage

6 Jun 1868, Patricium KEALY, [of] Jericho, [son of] Petri KEALY
[married]  Catharinam BUTLER, [of the same place], [daughter of] Gulielmi BUTLER

and I think the baptisms of the family are -

Born; Baptised; Child; Father; Mother
3 Mar 1869; 14 Mar 1869; Petrus CALEY; Patricii CALEY; Catharinae BUTLER
3 Jun 1871; 2 Jul 1871; Maria KEIGHLEY; Patricii KEIGHLEY; Catharinae BUTLER
19 Jun 1874; 28 Jun 1874; Gulielmus KAILLY; Patricii KAILLY; Catharinae BUTLER
13 Jul 1876; 23 Jul 1876; Joannes KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER
18 Sep 1878; 6 Oct 1878; Ricardus KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER
11 Jan 1881; 30 Jan 1881; Joseph KELLY; Patrick KELLY; Catharine BUTLER
13 Apr 1885; 26 Apr 1885; Thomas KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER

All these baptisms were recorded by the same Irish priest, except the one in English which was recorded by a Belgian priest.  I suspect that the details of the children were provided by a different set of godparents for each child .

The baptism register for another parish has four children that I think are the same family with surnames written as –  Aughtigan; Aughtigan; Octagan; Octigan.  If you read these aloud and listen, I think you will hear much the same sound for each.

Your decision about the records being the same person will be a personal one based on the total evidence you can collect.

40
Lancashire / Re: Manchester Inquests
« on: Tuesday 05 April 16 20:27 BST (UK)  »
Coroner’s Inquest papers are closed under Data Protection legislation for 75 years.  They may be transferred to the local Record Office (Archives Plus in Manchester).

On the other hand, Coroners are encouraged to cull their records and only save the ‘interesting’ cases, though it is not clear what ‘interesting’ means.

The period of interest to you is outside the closure period but may fall foul of culling.

Often the best source of information about Coroner’s inquests is the local press.  Nowadays the reports are quite short but in earlier times they were much more detailed, and even gory.  The local press at that time would have been “The Manchester Guardian”, the Manchester Evening News, and the Manchester Evening Chronicle.

Hope this helps

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)
 

41
Lancashire / Salford Diocesan Archives update
« on: Saturday 02 April 16 18:07 BST (UK)  »
Hi, Folks,

I have just received this note that may interest some of you.

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)


From: The Salford Diocesan Archives
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2016 5:35 PM
To:
Subject: Diocesan Archives Update

Dear All,

It has been a while since my last bulletin.

Website
The Diocesan Archives website sdaregisters.co.uk has been offline for a couple of months, unfortunately this shall not be changing. It is looking likely that the website shall be permanently mothballed, this is due to lack of funding.

Online Shop
The Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society have very kindly agreed to take over the production and sales of the Catholic parish register CDs. Their online bookshop can be found at the following link

http://www.mlfhs-shop.co.uk

Follow the link for Registers, and Roman Catholic.

Anybody wanting copies of books, such as the St Bede's College book, will find them now on our Amazon shop.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Bedes-College-Manchester-Vol/dp/0992812801/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1459614533&sr=8-2&keywords=st+bedes+College

New CDs
Recently CDs of the following church registers have been published.

St Chad's, Cheetham Hill
St William's, Angel Meadow
St Cuthbert, Withington
St Joseph, Longsight


Email Address
This email address shall remain active for queries.

Other forms of Communications
We are now running both a Facebook group, and a Wordpress blog to keep people up to date with news from the archives, so please follow at least one of them.

https://salforddiocesanarchives.wordpress.com

https://www.facebook.com/Salford-Diocesan-Archives-204691413068451/

Archive & Heritage Centre
The Diocesan Heritage Centre at St Augustine's continues to be open to the public on Tuesday afternoons.

Any questions, please let me know.

Lawrence Gregory
Diocesan Archives Assistant

42
Lancashire / Re: James Johnston b.1866
« on: Friday 26 February 16 20:43 GMT (UK)  »
Hi,

The Register has an entry -

James  Johnson  1866  Warrington R.D.  Lancashire 

and the place of residence of this person is described as the County Mental Hospital.  This Hospital was the one at Winwick.  From the entry it is clear that the hospital were only provided with an approximate date of birth and this suggests he may not have known where he was born.

It may be worth checking the records of these two institutions to see if there are any further details.  There may be details of next of kin and addresses that might help.

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

43
Lancashire / Re: James Johnston b.1866
« on: Friday 26 February 16 19:43 GMT (UK)  »
Hi,

You say James Johnston's date of death is 28 Dec 1954 at Winwick.

Have you tried the 1939 Registration lists?  He should be recorded on that and it is possible that he is in the Manchester/Liverpool area at that time.  Have you an address for his death, as this may provide a possible clue?

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

44
Lancashire / Re: Richard Lancaster Ormskirk
« on: Monday 14 December 15 20:59 GMT (UK)  »
In the late 1600s and the 1700s there was a Catholic LANCASTER family resident in Ormskirk, probably linked to the Lancaster family that held Rainhill Hall.  There is quite a bit of information about this family in Andrew Lancaster’s site about LANCASTER families (http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/The%20Lancasters%20of%20Rainhill.html )

The book “Returns of Papists, 1767, Diocese of Chester” trans. E.S. Worrall, Catholic Record Society (Occasional Pub No. 1) (1980) p.27,  has the following family in the Township of Ormskirk –

Richard LANCASTER Husbandman, aged 40, resident [in Ormskirk] 6 years
Elizabeth, his wife, aged 40, resident [in Ormskirk] 6 years
Edward, his son, aged 7, resident [in Ormskirk] 6 years
Mary, his Daughter, aged 4, resident [in Ormskirk] 4 years
Elizabeth Do. Aged 3 months
resident [in Ormskirk] 6 years

and on page 76, has the following family resident in Ulnes Walton, in the Parish of Croston –

John LANCASTER.  Aged 27, Husbandman, resident 3 months
Eliz. His wife, Aged 27, resident 3 months
Mary, his Daugr, aged 2,  resident 3 months
Edwd, his Son, aged 3 months, resident 3 months

The Lancashire Archives in Preston has a copy of the early baptism registers of St Ann RC Church, Ormskirk, -

ORMSKIRK, St Anne; Archdiocese of Liverpool
C 1736-1836;  M 1784-1845;  B 1750-1792;  Copy reg Microfilm; DDX 241/26

Hope this helps

45
Lancashire / Re: Ann Pritchard from Llanrug
« on: Friday 24 July 15 22:59 BST (UK)  »
The marriage you seek is recorded in the Chorlton Registrar's Register, so it took place in the Chorlton Register Office OR in a non-Anglican chapel (Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, RC, etc.)  It was only from 1898 that Authorised Persons could be appointed by non-Anglican chapels to act for the Registrar for the solemnisation of marriages, so not many had been appointed by 1900.  The easiest way to get the full details for this marriage is to purchase the certificate.  If you purchase it from the Manchester Registrar, you will get a copy (hand written or possibly a photocopy) from the original register.  You will need to quote the Reference No. CHO_RM/143/53.  If you order from the GRO you will get a copy from the national register that is at least two transcriptions away from the original entry.


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