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73
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Thursday 10 September 20 18:37 BST (UK)  »
Hi David

 Kizzy wrote below old old George Gipsy Smith died in 1941

 
 Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
 He also used the alias Clayton.   


do you know what month he died in 1941, and also was there a George stated as one of his sons, there is another George from what Kizzy told me who was born in Hyson Green Nottingham 1889, i am trying to work out was Gipsy George Smith the son of George Gipsy Smith who Kizzy says ended up at Keswick street, this below is the other George that Kizzy wrote about who was born in Nottingham, i want to be sure that the George who we new was the son of the  George Smith who lived at Keswick street, this other George below plus any number of them could of had a George, i know they are all related and many around Sneinton


Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 17 September 19 14:46 BST (UK) »
Beatrice Smith
Bn Jan 1860 Braunston, Leicestershire
Bp 8 Jan 1860 Croxton Kerrial, Leic
Marr 16 Jan 1888 in Leicester – James Wesseldine
D 2 Aug 1948 Nottingham, Notts.

1871 and 1881 census she is with her parents and family.
1939 Register she is living in Nottingham with her family and died there in 1948.

Children:
Lillie Wesseldine 1889-1957
John (Johnny) Wesseldine 1890-1971
Mary Ann Wesseldine 1892-
James Wesseldine 1894-1959
William Wesseldine 1894-1900


Thomas Albert Smith
Bn 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
Bp 11 Jan 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
D 1928 The old Workhouse Hospital, Nottingham.

Partnered Medlane Smith 1862-1907 (died from appendicitis) d/o Hawthorne Smith 1817-1883 & Cinamenta Smith 1819-1914

Children:
George Smith Bn 1889 Hyson Green, Notts.
Reservoir Smith Bn 5 Nov 1890 Castleton St, Nottingham -Died 1980 Doncaster, Yorkshire.
      She married in 1908 George Edward Sidney Margetts 1886-1941
Mary Ann Smith Bn 4 Apr 1893 Hyson Green – Died 1973 Nottingham, Notts.
      She married in 1915 Thomas Stanley 1892-1945
Beatrice Smith Bn 1899 Hyson Green, Notts.
Henry (Harry) Smith Bn 1901 Berridge Road, Hyson Green, Notts.

 
Old Gipsy George Smith and my Mother stated we were cousins, Kizzy stated old old George Gipsy Smith lived at Keswick street Sneinton in the later years, i need the month in 1941 that he died to help to find concluded truth and also did he have a son named George who went on to be the Gipsy George Smith related to us, i know there are many many children some maybe unknown and Sneinton seems to be a strong place of the Smiths from the family of George Smith Gipsy Smith who died in 1941, Gipsy George Smith who we new died also from Sneinton and lived there to, i have to try and work things out for i would see the face of my Mother as she recounted the death of her own Mother, she told me she asked and asked she tryed and she tryed but no one would tell her the real truth regarding the death of her own Mother in fact from what i have found she was lied to

74
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 16 August 20 13:01 BST (UK)  »
...........anyway read this next about Sneinton from some of Kizzys research over the years, look where it says (Land Society's field caravan) make sure you read the article from Ellen Rosenman that I put on next about enclosure-acts-and-the-commons, make sure you understand fully about the meaning of (Land Society's field) it is first very important to read what Ellen Rosenman has to say, if you can help in any way you should write back with your research and knowledge correct me many times that would be the right thing todo, I will ask of you only one thing though, you may have to ask Kizzy, so this is what i ask of you. when George Smith died in 1941 what was on his death certificate.

Right this is about the Land Society field system, this knowledge as helped me understand what is going on around Nottingham right up to the times of my youth, good luck pal


Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
 He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... George’s mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.

1871 - He is encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.


Re: smith/booth gypsies nottingham
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 15 April 12 16:33 BST (UK) »
Hi - Back again,

This is all I know about the Booth gypsy connection...

1871 census
Radford, Sneinton,  Land Society's field caravan, nottinghamshire
In first van
John Smith bn 1834 - his 2 co wives and all their children

next Van
Everitt Plumb bn 1833 Head 38  bn Nottinghamshire
Keziah Booth bn 1839  Boarder 32  Bn Leicestershire
James Plumb  bn  1866 Son       5  Bn      "
Henry Plumb  bn  1868 son        3   bn      "
Keziah Plumb bn  1871 daug      0   bn      "
Everett Plumb bn  1864 son       7    bn    Notts
Amelia Plumb  bn   1860  daug   11  bn  Leic

Everett Plumbs bn 1833 - his parents were
Nathan Plumb bn 1797 - 1885 Lambley and
Ann Cook bn 1806 - 1870 Gunthorpe Notts

One of their other daughters and Everett's sister was a Violetta Plumb bn 1833
who married in 1852 2Q Nottingham a William Caunt.  Someone has a lot of their family history on line.  They ended up living in Grantham.

Not sure if this helps you...

What I have learnt by reading books is that when looking for Gypsy relatives you have to forget how the non-gypsy folk use their names in a set way.  Travelling folk interchange the surname - use mothers maiden name, or an alias - and change their first name from time to time as well - also they didn't always marry in the way we would call marry - so there is no legal trace - it's wonderful!!!  But most often there is a christening somewhere - you just have to find it.

I really need to make the connection with the Smiths and Keziah Booth...

Kazi








Extract from article below

Rosenman, Ellen. “On Enclosure Acts and the Commons.”  Britain, Representation and Nineteenth-Century History.

 "The Northern Star, the chief newspaper of Chartism, mourned the extinction of the “hardy sons of the earth” who typified Englishness (“THE LAND!”). Radical politics consistently looked to an imputed past as the model for the future. This fealty to a single version of England, understood as originating in its ancient Anglo-Saxon origin, is one of the defining features of working-class politics.[13] National identity itself was at risk; with the betrayal of a foundational culture, the land itself is dying:

No more thy glassy brook reflects the day,
But choked with sedges, works its weedy way . . .
Sunk are thy bowers, in shapeless ruin all,
(Deserted Village ll. 41-43, 47)

Given this context, it is not surprising that populist politics turned to a variety of land schemes in an attempt to restore pre-enclosure communities. In the late 1840s and 1850s, freehold land societies attempted to recreate these communities on a micro-scale."

 


http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=ellen-rosenman-on-enclosure-acts-and-the-commons



Ellen Rosenman, “On Enclosure Acts and the Commons ...


75
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 16 August 20 12:54 BST (UK)  »
.............   I do know you and others can read and are more than likely educated far better than me, I am not trying to sound like I am teaching you anything, I hear so many people writing about Gipsy's and I truly think they are way of the mark, I have been studying the third Cousin meaning, I have many from the Gipsy's around this time, I will talk about that later but I share Gr Gr Grandparents with the Stanley's of the U.S.A straight third Cousin they say, you can be a third Cousin once removed that means it was maybe your Mother who was the third Cousin, so you has a match being the son of your Mother was a Cousin once removed, I have so many American Gipsy's that I share Old Family ties with like the Young's Boswells, and the Lees from Canada the Scamps from the South plus many more not to mention several Gipsy family's in these lands like the Smiths which i have several matches, I just can't believe it,  i don't evan know how or why, i was reading what Richard said on a d.n.a thread a time back and maybe this is a reason why so many Gipsy Family's are related to me, read below from Richard the Romany Gipsy Scholar of great renown who is the noted author of many of the most relevant written words of the Gipsies of the Lands we call Home...the one and only wordsmith extraordinaire...............    https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/


Offline richarde1979
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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #107 on: Monday 11 June 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
 
extract

I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.

That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:

"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly – it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."

In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups,  because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.


  The above is from Richard, i have d.n.a matched to several Wilsher and the Holmes familys, i match to most if not all of the old names that are thought of as Gipsies, and guess what David i dont evan know how, a long time back Lee wrote it will be there, it will be there, if your from them it will be there, Lee said you may have to go back a certain generation to pick up the trail of the unknown names, but if your of the Romany it will be there, you will as a person connect to the Gipsies as a whole, this is more all less how Lee spoke years back, then guess what i did my d.n.a and now i evan have ancestor's from Derbyshire called Boswell, that was a distant one, and i have distant Boswells from America plus Third Cousin Boswells from America and Lees from Wales. how about that then.. i am only talking like this because i still do not have a clue, Lee said his Dad always said Gipsy's are all related, through family ties this must be true, Lees Dad was right evan i am related to the Romany, as in lots of names, but who am i though, i guess i am still just the son of Rebecca and she the daughter of Rebecca the great matriarch of history who herself was the daughter of Mariah the great unknown......................

76
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 16 August 20 12:45 BST (UK)  »
Hi David
                I have been trying to understand what I have been finding, there is no doubt that the Smiths like the Wilshers and many other Gipsy names as in family's travelled over what is known as a circuit, over time the City and Towns expanded, many times the Gipsy camps where like satellites that surrounded these places, some like Radford Marsh were home at times to many family's like the Grays Knights Allens and such, others would just be for a few extended family's like at Hawthorne Street, by the way I think it was known as Smiths field for the reason the Smiths camped there, Sky I think was right in thinking this could be true, the bigger camps like over at Radford would be from an older age that would be the reason many extended family groups would use it, the one at Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow would have followed on from the fields across the other side of the Trent river, I found Gipsies over that way before Hawthorne Street, they got closer and closer to the City has the City itself moved outwards, where once there were fields where once there were farms where once there were free and welcoming hideaways, yes, where once you would say, but they went, they went and they never came back, houses houses and more houses, thats what was built on the old fields that serounded the City long ago, I have found all this to be true, I will tell you later much more, you must read what Ellen Roseman writes about in the article next, try and read every word, go back to it time and time again try to absorb what as happened, this happening is the reason Gipsies ended up at the sides of motorways when they moved on, many Gipsy Family's stayed round the City's and Towns for the day of the Greenfield had passed, many then would be absorbed into the fabric of the city, after a few generations most of the offspring would know nothing much, maybe they would say chavie and have a photo of a varda, my own Mother would hawk and buy and sell in my younger days and she was brought up with her own grand parents close by and them born about the 1860s70s or thereabouts, my own Grandmother would pull away from evan other Gipsies if she thought they wasn't up to what She thought, some people talk of the word Mokody has a word, everyone as to live and die in their own family truth, how could a stranger understand that which he thinks of as strange, i suppose some Gipsies kept living on nice green fields but most i think ended up on camp sites not in green fields as time passed into the 1900s and onwards, look below how it says the Smiths where in Snenton in 1871, then look at where it says (Land Society's field caravan) I will elaborate more on these subjects soon......

77
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 26 July 20 08:43 BST (UK)  »
 

Hi David

Looks like you found some good information, some of your relatives where over Arnold way from what Kizzy told me, i have not found out about Arnold much its just up and over the way from me, about a few hundred tossers of a stone from Sneinton, i will just show you some old paintings and maps soon so you may come to understand the area, try and feel into the past, it is no doubt in my mind there is a great links between the Wilshers and the Smiths, more than likely many many times down through these generations, they campt together at the lands i first found round Hawthorne Street, it was only a small camping place so i think only related family's would stay there, there was some foreigner Gipsies who stayed awhile but Old George Gipsy Smith tottally smashed them up bad, and broke there violins, the Wilshers would fight the Smiths to but that's what they seamed to do a lot, but there was lots of the Bacon's round there to who i have found through Kizzy and d.n.a that are in the related family's, i have matches to a Smith Girl who are in your related family plus i have a match to a Gray Girl who's family have the Bacon's and the Smiths who are related to you and Kizzy so there is d.n.a to match the oral family talk plus the census that Sky found plus the newspaper records of them all camping on that ground round the Wilford Meadows way ( Hawthorne street kings meadow road cremorne street and such) just look through these maps that show you the past

This painting is looking up to Nottingham from the South, on the left is the Castle to the right middle is St Marys that's where Sarah Boswell and my mother was taken when they both died, to the far right is (Snenton) Sneinton the name alters over the years, in the middle is the sharp spire of another church, old George Smith (Gipsy George) not old old George Smith (Gipsy Smith) would offten stand near there where there was the old barrow boys of the old family's selling things mostly fruit, i think many people of the Gipsies came into the Towns and such over generations when the common lands where enclosed, i would think a certain amount of barrow boys would hold Gipsy ancestry, Gipsy George i saw with my own eyes many times when i was young going through the town just stop and talk to some of the barrow boys, he would be old then and i was young but he seamed to be offten alone, just standing there with those far away eyes of the Gipsies, he was more of the darker shade than the white and dark hair and a long straight back a stiff and upright gate was his posture, he had, he always had the yellow and bright colours on a kneck tie round his top shoulder above is shirt, he was from an older age, i new now by this young age that somehow i was related to this quiet man of darkness but i dear not never to enter his presence, there was a sort of secret boundary that he seamed to radiate around himself, yet he could capture all with those dark eyes and imprison the field of vision evan tho he seamed to be staring far in to the future or evan the past, but i was fast as i have always been and it was me who stole his eyes, i new he was looking as i would walk by evan tho no one alive could  catch such eyes, sometimes i would get the feeling of loneliness from him, once or twice when i was sure i was not in his grasp i would stop for a bear senconed and take  a chance in not being seen in the way of a free glance, there he stood like a colossal of a statue staring out unto something i am sure that lay not before him, i remember being up at the Smiths House and the Woman talking about old Romany as in words, there was a few of them and all related they seamed like old hags to me that could make a lad trashed, Gipsy George just sat there and chatted to my Mother in a quiet fashion of ease, he could chat away and think of other things at the same time, i would feel his eyes, the Woman would just be crackling away about who new more of this and that and such things, but Gipsy George was reserved in his manner the Smiths still new many of the old Gipsy words that like the olden times have drifted away, Gipsy George Smith would talk to the old barrow boys of the town for that was all that was left of the older ways of the City life as from his earlyer days, everone of his age and older i would say was now gone he had time for my Mother to just to be polite now and that's a fine thing to share the good talk in an open manner i will tell more of the Smiths another time, i will probably never find certain truths, d.n.a oral talk, census records newspaper articles may link many but do they show the past as it was, i still have his eyes though so more will be revealed, of course these words where from me when i was young there must of been much more this is only from my own eyes

Snenton is on the right side of this painting next i will show more that will help everyone to understand the bigger picture, right at the front of this painting and below the castle is the lands known in the past as the Kings Meadow that became the lands that the Smiths and Family's like the Wilshers campt on, this is the South called the Meadows to the far right is Sneinton where next i will write about and show the maps and another painting to help

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/nottingham-from-the-south-47533/search/actor:lambert-george-c-17001765/page/3/view_as/grid

78
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Tuesday 21 July 20 06:18 BST (UK)  »
Hello Michael
I have read and found interesting many of your posts over the last few years.
I have just read through the Wilsher, Wilshire thread. 
Looking at your dna matches it appears that we have a link through a female Smith
related to Abraham 1680, Absalom Smith 1768 LeviSmith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790.....
I have not done a dna. My Smiths are mainly Notts., Leics, and Derbys. My Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi 1810-1883.
Please keep posting
All the best
David


Hi David

 Are you related to these Smiths below, you see i was talking on here to Kiziah and Sky regarding family matters and Kizzy told me lots of truths, you see the Smiths in Nottingham come from George Smith who comes from the Smiths below, George had a son George whos long gone now and we would be known as cousins to them Smiths but i do not know why, then the d.n.a is showing me links to many Smiths like you found one, i have more but first will you tell if these Smiths below are related to you for they link with Gipsy George who was my Mothers Cousin, i am trying to weave oral tradition with d.n.a results plus the hard work that Sky and Kizzy have done, i hope you may write back soon with some help

michael

this below is what Kiziah told me, she said these are Georges family, Gipsy George was said to be a Cousin to my Mother but i dont know how, do you see in 1871 they were campt in Snenton, thats where i was born i have found all about the old caming ground and will put that on soon

GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
 He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... George’s mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.

1871 - He is encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.

1881 - He is again encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and children in Pickwell, Leicestershire.

1891 - I can't find him, but by this time he has formed a partnership with Ellen Clayton bn about 1873 (not been able to find anything on her before being with George Smith – she possibly died 1912 Nottingham, but not sure at all.

1901 – I cannot find him.

1911 - He is now in Nottingham at 12 Nelson Square, Nelson St, Nottingham - A Hawker of drapery goods.  He's with Ellen Clayton, they say on the census Married 20yrs 13 children born alive, 8 living, 5 had died.  Children with them on this census are:
Angelina 15
Mente 14
Alfred 12
Esperella (Esmeralda) 7
John 4
Frank 2
All the children are said to be born in Leicester.  I have the birth cert for Esmeralda as mentioned previously in this thread - she was born 25 Feb 1904 in a Van on Robert Street, Leicester.

Some of the children used the surname Clayton-Smith at times.

On 27 Jul 1912 George Smith married in Nottingham Registry Office Agnes White bn 5 Nov 1893 - 1982.  He gives his age as 35 (he was really 44), gives his occupation as Horse Dealer and her age as 24 (she's really 19) - she was mentioned in a newspaper article in 1936 as being of stout build, with black hair and a sallow complexion. George's Fathers occupation is given a Clothes Dealer, and Agnes's father is Robert White (deceased) Scissor Grinder. Witnesses are A Bacon and E Smith.

1939 Register George and Agnes are living 4 Keswick Street, Snienton, Nottingham with Agnes and some of their children.  Some of George’s other children are living in nearby houses.

Panished has previously helped with Newspaper Articles mentioning and about George Smith which has been really useful…  Thanks.

I will also upload notes I have on George’s Full Siblings and then another upload of his ½ siblings…

79
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 19 July 20 09:23 BST (UK)  »
Hi David

Just to say helo and I do hope you are well and all your family keeping fine, I think the d.n.a is good, but I think most have it wrong, they think only if the supposed origin shows up, it really is simple but people I think have been seduced by truth, you have to read with my mind to understand that, it says on Ancestry things like ethnicity, but I do not understand what that meens, Ancestry say I am British or thereabouts, yet they took my money and for the price say I have the same d.n.a with many people from the Gipsies, we share, then I thought well this is true we all come from people descended from Britain evan though lots are from country's like America, most of them have a spoon full of the Indian d.n.a, but now I have a match from a Lady, I will not say her name but she is a Gipsy who descends from one of the European country's, she is not evan from Britain, well I share d.n.a with her, my results say i share with many who have a certain % of Indian d.n.a, but how can I share d.n.a with this Lady, this is her d.n.a breakdown in numbers

England, Wales & Northwestern Europe   1%
 
 Northern & Western India    34%
 
  Turkey & the Caucasus       32%
 
   Greece & the Balkans        15%
 
    Eastern Europe & Russia      8%
 
     Southern & Eastern India    8%
 
       Iran/Persia    2%
 


I do not understand the way people from the Gipsy community have wrote over the last years, I thought I did but now I am questioning the science in thought, some people think a spoonful is who you are as in being Indian, then they would denigh others for only having a spoonfull as in being Gipsy as in family connections through shared d.n.a, you may not understand my mind, in life you are all your Ancestor's, true science now tells us maybe only the last several generations, after that it as all gone in who you are, that makes sense to me for you would have seven heads and such if you was everyone, if you share to people alive now d.n.a then that's who you are, if some want to play the numbers game lets go back, way back when we all meet up in Africa, yes I think the truth is very simple yet science can with truth cloud the mind of some. 

Good look David may you never want my son, (that's what my mam used to say)

michael

  And I know the Lady above who shares d.n.a with me is of the Gipsies for she shows her matches on her profile and they are Boswells Wharton's Allans from America and such and I also share a spoonful with all of them, we all share, the American matches people could say this or that, but the match from the Lady with all that Gipsy d.n.a, well how do i share d.n.a with her, I am the scrag end, no doubt in that, a bit i would say that fell of the spoon and in the shadows it lays, i suppose a kind of background noise.

 Thank you for sharing your knowledge i will write back another time about the Smiths, you said your Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi, they would be great people you are a proud man for them.

  If you do have the test remember sometimes evan though you are of certain peoples the results do not show what say your Cousin may be told as results, well these statements i read on the information that may be found, and i myself must be related to lots of Irish people on my dads side for i have many cousins it says of Irish Ancestry, i have now read you can retest just on your Mothers side and that is what i will do for i have hundreds of Cousins distant and closer and i know that my dad was a farmer from Irelands wild west lands called Conaught as in the old Kingdoms of Ireland so it makes seance to zero in on my Mothers side to find the truths of, well i don't know what really, i do not know if i am looking, some sort of journey i would say, when i get there i suppose i will know, its just good to look though and if by looking i may help others then a good journey it would have been, who needs a destination when the company is good.

80
Travelling People / Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« on: Sunday 05 July 20 12:59 BST (UK)  »
page eight

So now i will show you the link back from the ryme about the black tinkler to the black douglas that was found but the author did not see the connection as i do for all the later writers that i found were not yet born when this next book was wrote, then i will show you how a further link back was found to evan a later time of Richard the first.... Walter Scott will come into that account in the end posts so all will become clear only at the end, try and read all the old books and new books plus articles i have found there is a great wealth of knowledge in them

David MacRitchie 1851-1925

ANCIENT
AND
MODERN BRITONS:
A RETROSPECT.
VOL. I.
LONDON:
KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH & CO., 1 PATERNOSTER SQUARE.
1884.



 Page 216-217

 ………. Sir Walter Scott seems also to regard " the good Sir James " as The Black Douglas, whereas we know that no fewer than four of the Douglas earls bore that title, while their very clan name, strictly considered, signifies " the black man." That " a Black Douglas " must at one time have been a term interchangeable with " a black man " or " a gipsy," is indicated also by the rhyme which Scott places in the mouth of the soldier's wife at Roxburgh castle-—

" Hush ye, hush ye, little pet ye,
Hush ye, hush ye, do not fret ye,
The Black Douglas shall not get ye."

This very rhyme is said by Simson to be sung by mothers to their fretful children, at the present day, with this significant variation, that the last line runs— " The black Tinkler winna get ye." Therefore, for this reason also, a " Black Douglas " was only a synonym for a " Moor." And when one or other of the chiefs of this race was styled " The Black Douglas," the article so prefixed was employed exactly as it is yet done in Ireland and in Scotland, to distinguish the head of the clan from the rest of his clansmen, all of whom bear the same tribal name.
The Black-Douglases of history were thus the ancestors of certain families of modern gipsies ; the name of Douglas being, in one of its phases, an equivalent of Tinkler.*
 
 * It is noteworthy, in this connection, that the Tinklers are referred to "in a charter of William the Lion (1165-1214)." (" Encyc. Brit." 9th edit art. “Gipsies.") 

Page 164

In all the older references to the race, they are spoken of as purely black, not tawny. It is said that Scottish peasant mothers soothe their children with the couplet—

 " Hush nae, hush nae, dinna fret ye ;
The black Tinkler winna get ye "
 
* Simson's " History," p. 45. This recalls Sir Walter Scott's account of the taking of Roxburgh Castle, and the song of the Englishwoman to her baby—

" Hush ye, hush ye, little pet ye,
Hush ye, hush ye, do not fret ye,
The Black Douglas shall not get ye." And, like the Tinkler, Douglas was himself a black man.
 
I found this information below contained in a book of poem winners in the year 1840, this now connects the black Douglas ryme of frightening children to the Arab mothers frightening their children.
 
John Charles conybeare obtained the chancellors medal
at Cambridge university st peters colledge in 1840
for the poem
"Richard the first in palestine"

extract
 
No more the Arab warrior chides his steed, 
“Is Richard there, why start from yonder reed?”   
Nor Eastern mothers to their infants sing Of Richard,
England's lion-hearted king.
Yet deem not buried in oblivion's gloom,
Idly he sleeps forgotten in the tomb.
 
This below are the notes written at the end of this poem in the stated book.

"so great the terror which richard inspired, that for many years it was customary among arabs to reprove their horses thus; and their women used to frighten their children with his name. In the time of Bruce, the name Douglas was put to similar use. The following is still preserved".

" Hush ye, hush ye, litle pet ye, hush ye,
        hush ye, do not fret ye,
   the black douglas shall not get ye,"


next i will link Scott to the above, Scott had a extensive collection of books including the times of the crusades, it is wrote it was an Arab writer who first used the words to frighten children, Scott seems to favour the liberal thought of certain writers of the past and had connections to familys like the ones from Roslin that place of high intrige, i think way back at the times of the Crusades this story started, Scott in his mind was thinking about the origin of many things, and to weaving his majik into the narative, no one will ever find Scott, everyone will see through their own eyes, i am just trying to show how if a writer like Simson makes certain comments and you start to think on them, then also i think a person should think on all his words, the same also should be thought of my words

to be continued.............

81
Travelling People / Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« on: Sunday 05 July 20 12:12 BST (UK)  »
page seven

I am writing and leaving out vast amounts of research i hope people can follow what i think is or maybe is going on, Scott changed border songs for there was many types of verses and aires melodys you could say he tryed in his mind to correct them and he collected storys and tales, at lot as todo with the facts about the Norman and Saxons, wait till you see where this story leads


IVANHOE;
A ROMANCE.
by Walter Scott


extract

Now fitted the halter, now traversed the cart,
And often took leave,----but seemed loath to depart!*

* The motto alludes to the Author returning to the stage
* repeatedly after having taken leave.

Prior.

INTRODUCTION
TO
IVANHOE.

The name of Ivanhoe was suggested by an old rhyme. All novelists
have had occasion at some time or other to wish with Falstaff,
that they knew where a commodity of good names was to be had. On
such an occasion the author chanced to call to memory a rhyme
recording three names of the manors forfeited by the ancestor of
the celebrated Hampden, for striking the Black Prince a blow with
his racket, when they quarrelled at tennis:

"Tring, Wing, and Ivanhoe,
For striking of a blow,
Hampden did forego,
And glad he could escape so."

The word suited the author's purpose in two material respects,
---for, first, it had an ancient English sound; and secondly, it
conveyed no indication whatever of the nature of the story. He
presumes to hold this last quality to be of no small importance.
What is called a taking title, serves the direct interest of the
bookseller or publisher, who by this means sometimes sells an
edition while it is yet passing the press.
Abbotsford,
1st September, 1830.


 I have been reading of the meening 'Freelance'
Freelancing has always been a battle. Literally.
 it is said to meen someone  pursuing a career without making a long-term commitment to one employer.  yet i have read that its original meaning or earliest written evidence comes from Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe, in which a lord refers to his paid army of 'free lances, freelance first came into English in the early 1800s, it was used to refer to a medieval mercenary who would fight for whichever nation or person paid them the most. Our earliest written evidence for this use (so far, that is) is in Sir Walter Scott's novel, Ivanhoe, where a feudal lord refers to the paid army he's assembled:

"I offered Richard the service of my Free Lances, and he refused them—I will lead them to Hull, seize on shipping, and embark for Flanders; thanks to the bustling times, a man of action will always find employment".

also it was Scott who made up parts of Robin Hood like the Apple shooting and such, Scott, no one will be able to find him he has secret doors in that make believe castle he built, he was liberal in thinking and had something todo with the Knights Templar, it was said he was not in the Masons but Mason signes are wrote on some Gipsies graves up that way, i can not tell you their names only to say it connects to my findings, i just want people to research themselvs when they read things of the past

to be continued.................
 

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