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Messages - element4

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28
Dublin / Re: Family who might have returned to Dublin between 1851 and 1861. Greenwood/Ward.
« on: Wednesday 17 August 16 12:45 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Sinann on Wednesday 17 August 16 00:25 BST (UK)
There is no surviving census to search, so I tried to find one of them as a sponsor for someone on this site
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ but no joy.

Thanks for that link, it might have some lead.  I have found in the past that I can't find anything about Irish ancestors because the records were lost.  I tried to find out about Bridget's father James, and also about another Irish great grandmother, and found absolutely nothing.

29
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Wednesday 17 August 16 11:55 BST (UK)  »
Viktoria, thank you for recommending that Engels book.  I opened the free online pdf file onto a mini iPad and sat in the sun in a park reading it offline yesterday.  The language, style and way of thinking seemed old fashioned but it was interesting, I remembered the bits about the young women factory workers having to leave their babies for horrendously long hours so they could work to survive, in the charge of children and old women who were worth the tiny amounts they were paid, and the high infant mortality. That they would be soaked with breast milk during the long hours they were working in the factories. And the bits about the working classes buying a lot of quack medicines as their health was poor.  (I remember in a museum seeing nineteenth century devices for feeding milk to babies, and reading that these were responsible for a lot of infant mortality).

It was strange, Engels seeped into my dreams last night and I could actually see these people.
Reading something like Engels which is outside my reading comfort zone, and a lot harder than passively consuming secondary historical sources, might have opened some sort of door into an ability to visualise what history was really like, a bit like how they say learning a second language is good for your brain.

I had been struggling to even find anything like a primary historical source, and I think Engels' book qualifies as that.

30
Dublin / Family who might have returned to Dublin between 1851 and 1861. Greenwood/Ward.
« on: Tuesday 16 August 16 16:19 BST (UK)  »
I have been searching for my ancestors who seemed to vanish after the 1851 UK census, and their son, my great grandfather, re-appears on the 1871 UK census age 25 in Manchester.

As the wife was born in Dublin, I wondered if maybe the family all returned to Dublin, and their son returned to Manchester by 1871.

The 1851 census lists Thomas Greenwood,born 1817 Hebden Bridge age 32, West Yorkshire, Broker, Bridget Ward his wife born 1823 Dublin Ireland age 28, Hiram age 4 , James age 3, Betsy Ward house servant age 23 and John Ward age 14 no occupation.  The last two are Bridget Ward's younger siblings, born in Dublin Ireland.  They were living at 3 Clegg Court, Salford, Manchester.

None of them can be found on the UK 1861 census, and only Hiram re-appears on the 1871 UK census.

It was suggested to me that Thomas might have been sent to Australia and Bridget died young, but I can't find any death records or anything about deportation or Australia.

So I wondered if they returned to Bridget's home town of Dublin,Ireland some time after 1851 and before 1861.  Her and Betsy and John's father was called James Ward.  Maybe they went back to her family, after the worst of the Irish famine had passed.  There must have been pressure to leave the slums of Salford.

Where would I find this information?

31
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Monday 15 August 16 14:06 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Viktoria on Sunday 14 August 16 23:05 BST (UK)


If you are really interested try reading Engels` "The conditions of the working poor in Manchester"
Google it. You`ll be shocked and amazed- will also have such respect for your ancestors who came through.

I found a free online pdf of this Engels book by googling it.  Interesting. 

32
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Sunday 14 August 16 12:55 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: heywood on Sunday 14 August 16 12:21 BST (UK)
Interesting information

1851 2230/335/53

30 Angel Street unoccupied

30 Angel Street cellar

John Welsh 29 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Margaret Welsh 30 yrs Cap Maker b Ireland
Edward Welsh1 yr b Ireland
Mark McCann lodger 30 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Ellen McCann 30 yrs Waste ?..ker b Ireland

Most neighbouring houses are occupied by more than one family or have visitors /lodgers and generally from Ireland.

Glad you found the book information.

Heywood

Thanks, that information is very interesting.  I wonder if the illegible writing on the census for Ellen's occupation means "waste broker"?  It sounds like some variation on rag and bone dealer too.  My ancestor Thomas Greenwood's occupation was given on the 1851 census as "broker".  (On another source, his occupation was given as "card dealer", which sounds like something to do with the cotton industry, as elsewhere he was listed as a "carder").

33
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Sunday 14 August 16 12:17 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: heywood on Friday 12 August 16 18:36 BST (UK)
Hello,

If you search for Angel Meadow you can find several references to the area in academic or historical papers and both fiction and non-fiction.
In this article here you can read about Dean Kirby who recently brought out a book about his family connection.
I did hear the archaeologist speak about the discoveries made - it was very interesting.

Regards
Heywood

I read the article you link here.  It wouldn't load on my laptop but loaded easily on a mini iPad.  Dean Kirby can write, he puts academics to shame, his details bring it alive and bring into perspective the people like him who live in Manchester to this day, who their forebears were.  It sounds as though occupations like fishmonger and horse dealer were common, and also that a lot of people living there had escaped the Irish famine.

I never could find out what happened to my ancestors Thomas and Bridget Greenwood after the 1851 census, or Bridget's younger sister and brother, Betsy and John Ward, who were living with them in 1851.  Betsy Ward was listed on the 1851 census as a house servant age 23, so I might have better luck trying to trace what happened to her.

I think it is really important to understand these ancestors who came over from Ireland escaping the famine, and struggled in horrible sad conditions, yet leaving their descendants to carry their genes and probably a lot more.  There has to be more significance to their lives than the horrible conditions they struggled with from start to finish.

34
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Sunday 14 August 16 11:54 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Stan, Heywood and Viktoria for all that information, which brings out a mystery in itself why my ancestors were living in this big substantial house in 1846, together at their time of marriage.  The kind of big house that much later than their time got converted into a multiple occupation boarding house.  I have no census information for them in 1846 at that address, so can't find out the other occupants of the house.  Thomas seems to have had his own marine store, or rag and bone man store, sorting out scrap.

Maybe 30 Angel Street already was a multiple occupation boarding house in 1846, and its glory days were past?

35
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Sunday 14 August 16 10:58 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Viktoria on Saturday 13 August 16 20:43 BST (UK)
The church situated on Angel St was dedicated to  St. Michael and All Angels.
The area was quite rural  and the congregation was quite"well to do ",arriving in carriages  so the church was known as a "carriage church".

The graveyard of St. Michael`s  adjoins the flagged area where 40,000 people were buried, sadly the  York stone flags have gone  and all is grassed over.A few   gravestones from St. Michael`s remain near the end of Angel St.  two gateposts mark the entrance to the church yard near Crown Square.


I am not sure if my ancestors used that church.  They were married in 1846 a the church of St Mary, St Denys and St George, which I think later became Manchester cathedral, and this is where their son, my great grandfather, Hiram Greenwood was baptised on 25th October 1846.

Unfortunately I don't have a Census for this family when they were living in Angel Street at the time of their marriage in 1846, which often show the number of rooms a family is living in.  They only married in 1846 and the only census is for 1851, when they have moved to Clegg Court, Hulme, which lists the occupants as Thomas Greenwood age 32 Broker, Bridget Greenwood age 28, Hiram Greenwood age 4, James Greenwood age 3, and Bridget's younger siblings Betsy Ward age 23 and John Ward age 14, latter two born Ireland as was Bridget.  After the 1851 census, this whole family disappears from the records, although I have been able to trace Hiram, my great grandfather, who lived in Salford on the 1871 census, age 25, and then moved to the countryside outskirts of Manchester after his 3 year old first born daughter died in 1871.

36
Lancashire / Re: Angel Street Manchester.
« on: Sunday 14 August 16 10:50 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Viktoria on Saturday 13 August 16 20:43 BST (UK)
The church situated on Angel St was dedicated to  St. Michael and All Angels.
The area was quite rural  and the congregation was quite"well to do ",arriving in carriages  so the church was known as a "carriage church".
Angel St. houses were quite substantial and of a fair size but as the area declined they were split into multiple occupancy or lodging houses.
Arkwright built a mill near Crown Square at the end of Angel St and that is probably when the many back to back houses were built ,to house the workers. Incidentally "back to back " means just that ie no back doors , the houses shared an internal wall which meant there was no back exit, just  a front door.
  People  confuse terraced houses which do have back exits  with back to back  houses.
A lovely book "Sunrise to Sunset" by Mary Bertenshaw is a vivid account of the area.
Probably only available  at The central Library local history section.
The graveyard of St. Michael`s  adjoins the flagged area where 40,000 people were buried, sadly the  York stone flags have gone  and all is grassed over.A few   gravestones from St. Michael`s remain near the end of Angel St.  two gateposts mark the entrance to the church yard near Crown Square.
An absolutely fascinating area  and it bugs me that my family was from just out of the area, how interesting if they had been. they were from Worth St, Copper St,Montague St and Hancock St.
Lots of photographs on Manchester Council Photographic archives.
There was an episode of "Time Team"   but sadly they concentrated on the larger houses on angel St and completely missed out the crowded courts where there was no running water (except down the walls!)two or three toilets for many many people . and pigs dwelling there too.
Nineteen people lived in a house in John St , which had a cellar, one ground floor room ,one bedroom and an attic . No water or sanitation.John St was practically under the viaduct of the Lancs and Yorks railway  after the lines were added to.  Not all were of one family.                                                Viktoria.

Thanks.  That is a lot of research leads for me to try to follow up.

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