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Messages - what0101

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19
Ireland / Irish deed index
« on: Tuesday 20 September 22 18:50 BST (UK)  »
Edit: I've found it by searching every book starting with 33 and looking at every page that's 4X0. Phew!

I'm having a really hard time reading this deed index! I've put an image below, but the full size one is on FamilySearch. I'm trying to read the book and page number for the listing ending in 224205 that is near the bottom of the second-to-last paragraph on the right-hand page.

I believe it's a deed from James Dennis, Baron Tracton, to Thomas Rice, dated 12 Mar 1781 (it's mentioned in another deed), but I cannot find it listed under Dennis or Tracton, either. I've found the deed with the preceding number, but it's not near that one.

Anything else I can do to find this deed? I've tried looking at Book 336 and 338 at all pages numbered 4X0, but no luck.


20
Ireland / Thomas Rice, father of Stephen Edward Rice, grandfather of Thomas Spring-Rice
« on: Saturday 17 September 22 17:51 BST (UK)  »
I'm looking for information about Thomas Rice, but am finding it difficult to sort through all of the Thomas Rices. This Thomas Rice was married to Mary FitzGerald (sister of the Knight of Kerry) and was the father of Stephen Edward Rice of Cappa/Mount Trenchard in Limerick, who married Catherine Spring, and they were the parents of Thomas Spring-Rice.

I cannot find information on the parentage of Thomas Rice, although if I am understanding this deed correctly, where he is referred to as Thomas Rice Stephen, his father's name was Stephen. In the document he is identified as being from Dublin, and the property is in Kerry.

 I am looking for a copy of Thomas Rice's will, if it exists. He died on Feb 3, 1806. I'm trying to understand the ownership of the property mentioned in the above deed, and how it passed to and through the Rice family.

21
The Common Room / Re: Two BDM entries for the same child
« on: Wednesday 15 June 22 16:00 BST (UK)  »
Thanks so much, this is very helpful and makes sense with what I have seen DNA-wise. I'm trying to avoid buying certificates because it's not my family, but...  ::)

22
The Common Room / Two BDM entries for the same child
« on: Wednesday 15 June 22 13:58 BST (UK)  »
I've searched FreeBDM for two children, I will not post them here because they were born in the 1930s so still possibly alive, but I've changed their names. Hopefully someone with more experience with English records can tell me what's going on.

Mar 1931
JONES    Peter    Cooper    Watford
FRANK    Peter    Cooper    Watford

June 1933
JONES    Barbara    Cooper    Watford   
FRANK    Barbara    Cooper    Watford

The mother of these children was Gladys, maiden name Cooper, who married a man named Frank in 1919, and then married a man named Jones in 1940. Both Gladys and both of these children were on the 1939 register under the names Jones (with Mr. Jones also in the household).

I don't have enough experience with English records to know if:

--there were two listings because Gladys Frank nee Cooper had these children out of wedlock with Mr. Jones, so they were listed under both names

--there were two listings because these children were born to Mr. Frank but later adopted by Mr. Jones and thus were listed under both names (I don't know if this is a real possibility)

I'm just hoping to be certain which man is the biological father. The DNA points to Mr. Jones.

23
Ireland / Re: leases renewable forever
« on: Wednesday 16 June 21 20:51 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Wexflyer on Wednesday 16 June 21 20:44 BST (UK)

It has been explained several times over within this thread.

Thanks. I must have been too stupid to pick it up the first few times.

24
Ireland / Re: leases renewable forever
« on: Wednesday 16 June 21 20:40 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Wexflyer on Wednesday 16 June 21 20:18 BST (UK)
Methinks you are on a wild goose chase. You are misunderstanding/misinterpreting.
The "lease renewable forever"  **IS** almost certainly a lease of lives, one renewable forever.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean (or how that would work)

25
Ireland / Re: leases renewable forever
« on: Wednesday 09 June 21 23:03 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: John Falvey on Wednesday 09 June 21 21:26 BST (UK)
If the lease was in Kerry it could be a "Shelburne Lease". These arose from the Grand Lease of 1696/7 when 195,000 acres was out leased by the Pettys. This lease and many subsidiary leases were in perpetuity.

Daniel O'Connell bought one of the subsidiary leases in 1837. The wording states "with a covenant for perpetual renewal on the fall of each life for ever" - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-C9W3-8?cat=18572

This was Kerry. Should I just look in this index for my townland in look for similar wording?

26
Ireland / Re: leases renewable forever
« on: Tuesday 01 June 21 14:31 BST (UK)  »
Quote
Another person who usually holds under some great landowner is the " for ever " men or long leaseholder. This is his northern title, but he has different others. Sometimes he is called a "half sir," "half gentleman," or gentleman, according to the size of his property. He holds by a tenure almost if not quite peculiar to Ireland. This is a lease of lives renewable for ever now often converted into a " fee farm grant." In the north of Ireland he holds often but a few acres of land, but, as a rule, over the country he has two or three hundred acres at a low rent, frequently but halfa-crown an acre. He is nearly always of English or Scotch origin. The origin of freeholds, or long leases at nominal rents, is various. In one very remarkable case in Ulster, a number of long leaseholds were created of all sizes from a few acres to two or three hundred in a very simple way. The landlord was in a position to make these grants, which he did over a very great extent of property. A grant was made to any tenant who could pay down a lump sum.
from "The Irish peasant, a sociological study"

27
Ireland / Re: leases renewable forever
« on: Tuesday 01 June 21 11:41 BST (UK)  »
This is all really interesting!

Quote from: Jon_ni on Tuesday 01 June 21 04:57 BST (UK)
Looking at the OS pages again both refer to college land. Think was on the right lines above with perpetual renewable for period of years.
Quote from: Jon_ni on Tuesday 01 June 21 04:57 BST (UK)
See Enfranchisement Fee Farm Grants http://mcmahonsolicitors.ie/redundant-legal-interests/
"Leases for lives renewable forever were perpetual interests, which equity protected by allowing renewals… Such interest developed from the 18th Century to some extent in order to circumvent the penal laws which limited the property rights which could be granted to a person who was not a member of the established church."

There are also some where it's one individual to another. However, all the ones I can find are clearly one English Protestant to another. So I don't think this was a way of covertly selling land to Catholics.
 
Quote from: Jon_ni on Tuesday 01 June 21 04:57 BST (UK)
and page 47 (pdf page 8 ) of https://bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/61_1_3_solar.pdf
Quote
The more relevant sort of subletting involved ‘middlemen’, individuals who farmed little of the land that they held under lease, instead letting it out in smaller parcels to subtenants. In the seventeenth and early eighteenth century some Irish landowners, particularly those who had received recent grants of confiscated land, took the easy option of letting it out in blocks of hundreds and even thousands of acres. When they did so on leases in perpetuity or renewable forever, they effectively alienated the property to these large tenants. But many of the leases to middlemen were of shorter duration: in the eighteenth century leases for three lives were commonly given to Protestants, whilst the Penal Laws restricted the length of leases given to Catholics to 31 years. From the late eighteenth century landowners started eliminating the middlemen when they had the opportunity. If middlemen paid particularly low rents, either because they were favoured individuals or because they were taking over the effective management of the estate from the landowner,

This is exactly the situation I am looking at -- Protestant landowner renting "forever" to Protestant gentry who then subleased to many small (Catholic) farmers for much shorter terms, life or 21 years or yearly. I believe the actual lease may be in the National Archives, and I hope to be able to visit eventually and have a look.

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