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Messages - agray1949

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10
London and Middlesex / Re: John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Friday 28 January 22 16:06 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks for this latest information, I have had a quick look at the link to TNA search & it is quite helpful in respect of his will, where it helped with some wording I was not sure about.
Now that I/we have established that John Cramp is not my wife's 4 x great grandfather I will park his research to one side temporarily & come back to it at a later date.
What I now think has happened is that John (possibly) married Elizabeth Badham in 1783. She (possibly) died in 1785.
He then (possibly) married Elizabeth Hyde in 1787. It was this Elizabeth who was the mother of the 4 children Ann (1788 - 1788), John (1790), Elizabeth (1792) & Mary (1797). She then died in 1798 while having another unnamed child.
John then married Elizabeth Cramp in 1800 who already had a child called Ann.
It was this Ann who was mentioned in John's will of 1809 as "Daughter in Law" & went on to marry William Edward Jury in 1812 & Elizabeth 1792 was a witness at her marriage.
Ann's death in 1841 is taken from the burial record so I will obtain her death certificate to confirm who registered it & also check her age as that could alter her birth year.

11
London and Middlesex / Re: John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Thursday 27 January 22 17:45 GMT (UK)  »
So if I accept that the Ann who died aged 2 months in High Street Whitechapel was the Ann baptised 7th March 1788 is correct (& it does seem pretty convincing), then I need to find another Ann Cramp who was married to William Edward Jury.
She died in 1841 aged 53 according to the burial record which again takes me back to 1788.
She possibly was the daughter of Elizabeth who  had a child from a previous marriage to another Cramp.
The 2 marriages which I have for John in 1783 & 1787 are still doubtful but possible & then he married another Elizabeth in 1800.
The Elizabeth who died in 1798 could have been the 1787 marriage & the Elizabeth who married in 1800 was the one mentioned in the will.
I wonder how many Cramp's there were living in Whitechapel at the time & more interestingly in High Street.
I suppose I will now have to change my tree to reflect the death of Ann in 1788.

12
London and Middlesex / Re: John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Thursday 27 January 22 14:24 GMT (UK)  »
Wow,
Thanks for this bit of information about Ann & Elizabeth.
This could make sense of the will relating to Ann as the daughter in law (step daughter)
I must admit that I was slightly curios when reading the will that Elizabeth was mentioned before Ann as I would have thought the eldest born daughter would have been named first.
I still think the Ann named in the will is the one who married William Edward Jury in 1812, but who were her parents ?
The Elizabeth who died in 1798 would link in nicely with John being a widower in 1800 when he married Elizabeth Cramp. (I do wish they had used different names other than John & Elizabeth).

How have you managed to get the information about the 2 deaths Ann & Elizabeth. I saw them on Family search but could not view the documents. Ann's one came up on Ancestry but only gave her age & not what she died from.

I think I need to take some lessons on finding old records prior to 1840.

13
London and Middlesex / Re: John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Wednesday 26 January 22 16:38 GMT (UK)  »
I am as sure as I can be that the Ann in the Baptism is the same person as the Ann in the will. The confusion arose when she was described as daughter in law in the will on several occasions.
I am sure that the Elizabeth in the baptism records is the same as that in the will but cannot be absolutely certain, hence the possible 3 marriages. Elizabeth Badham 1783, Elizabeth Hyde 1787 & Elizabeth Cramp 1800.

I have also compared the signatures for the Cramp & Jury marriages against the Cramp & Cramp marriage & I think the Cramp & Cramp version is different to the other 2.

Would the baptisms be allowed if the parents were not married.

If Ann was the daughter of Elizabeth's first marriage then why would she be called John's daughter on the baptism record.

I will need to try & find out who Elizabeth (widow) was married to & what her maiden name was.

14
London and Middlesex / Re: John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Wednesday 26 January 22 15:04 GMT (UK)  »
The Elizabeth Cramp who was a witness at the marriage between William Edward Jury & Ann Cramp in 1812 later married Edmund Thomas Jury in 1828 at St. Faith under St. Paul, London. She was a spinster of the parish of St. Mary, Whitechapel & her signature looks very similar in both records (allowing for a 10 year gap). One of the witnesses at her marriage was John Cramp (brother I think)
William Edward Jury & Edmund Thomas Jury were brothers, so keeping it in the families.
If Ann was the daughter of John's (snr) wife before they married then why would he call her his daughter on the baptism record.
I really thought that when I found John's will in 1809 it was going to confirm my findings but all it has done is cause even more confusion.

15
London and Middlesex / John Cramp 1762 - 1809
« on: Tuesday 25 January 22 17:08 GMT (UK)  »
Hi all,
I wonder if anyone can give me some advice regarding John Cramp & his children
The information I have at present is that he was born about 1762 & died in 1809.
There were 4 children. Ann 1788 - 1841, John 1790 - 1854, Elizabeth 1792 - 1841, Mary 1797 - ?
I have the baptism records for all 4 children & they were all described as son/daughter of John Cramp & Elizabeth. High Street, Whitechapel, Middlesex & the baptisms were at St. Mary, Whitechapel

John Cramp (snr) (butcher) died in 1809 & left a will which I have mostly transcribed.
He left most of his estate to his son John when he reached 21 years of age, which ties in with the baptism of John in 1790. His wife Elizabeth was to take care of the estate until such time.
He also left £500 each to his daughter Elizabeth & daughter in law Ann, to be given to them when they got married. There is no mention of Mary so I assume she has died as a child before 1809.
Does the term daughter in law possibly mean step daughter because I am sure the Ann described was not married & married William Edward Jury in 1812 & one of the witnesses was Elizabeth Cramp.

Ancestry shows 2 marriages for a John Cramp in 1783 to Elizabeth Badham at St. Botolph without Aldersgate & later Elizabeth Hyde in 1787 at St. James Clerkenwell. John was described as a widower when he married in 1787.
There was also a burial for Elizabeth Cramp in 1785 at St. Leonards, Shoreditch, Hackney.
Could these be connected. The locations concern me & I don't fully trust other trees.

I have also found a marriage in 1800 at St. Mary, Whitechapel between John Cramp (widower) & Elizabeth Cramp (widow). They were both of this parish.

Could the children have been baptised before they married as the record just says John Cramp &  Elizabeth (not wife Elizabeth)
What about the baptism of Ann if she was a step daughter.

16
Surrey / Re: Lizabeth Cramp born 1792
« on: Wednesday 19 January 22 16:09 GMT (UK)  »
If she was a blood relative of my wife I would certainly purchase her death certificate but as she was her 3rd Great Grand Aunt I am reluctant to apply for it (my Scottish roots coming to the fore), but possibly in the future curiosity will get the better of me.
If it was Edmund's father William who registered the death then he would have been 78 so may not be too sure & if it was Mary Crighton who was 15 at the time then the same could apply.
If it had been in Scotland then I would probably used some credits (£1.50) to get a copy but it is a bit more from the GRO.
As I said curiosity may get the better of me, only time will tell.

17
Surrey / Re: Lizabeth Cramp born 1792
« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 14:13 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks for this help.
I am a bit annoyed with myself for not noticing her death registration in 1841.
The 1841 census which shows Edmund Thomas Jury living with his father also has a Mary Crighton age 15 at the same address. Edmund & Mary married in 1842 at Strand, London & went on to have 6 children between 1843 & 1853.
When I first recorded Elizabeth in my Ancestry tree & indicated she had died between 1829 & 1842, which I noticed was copied by several other trees, it was only recently that I saw the burial at Mortlake in 1829 but none of the others had questioned the validity. This is something which annoys me when information from trees is just taken for granted without any checking, so I am really glad that I have asked for your help & this is now cleared up.
One query that remains is her age (39) on the GRO website. If she was born in 1792 then she would have been 48/49 when she died & there seems to be a bit of haste when Edmund married Mary within a year.

18
Surrey / Lizabeth Cramp born 1792
« on: Monday 17 January 22 16:56 GMT (UK)  »
I am looking for some advise regarding Elizabeth Cramp who was Baptised in 1792. I am not sure if I should be checking in Surrey or Middlesex.
Elizabeth was baptised at St. Mary, Whitechapel, Middlesex in 1792 to John Cramp & Elizabeth ?
She married Edmund Thomas Jury at St. Faith under St. Paul on 15th July 1828.
They had a son Edmund Jury who was baptised at St. Faith under St. Paul on 9th June 1829 & buried at St. Faith under St. Paul on 14th June 1829 age 6 days.
Edmund Thomas Jury married again in October 1842 & was described as a widower.
There is no mention of Elizabeth in the 1841 census so I can be sure she died between 14th June 1829 & 6th June 1841.
There is an Elizabeth Cramp who was buried on 16th October 1829 at Mortlake, Surrey age 37.
The age would be correct & the name if she was buried using her Maiden name.
My questions are : Why use her maiden name & why was she buried in Mortlake & not nearer to St. Faith under St. Paul. On the same page of the burial record is an Ann Brown whose abode is given as St. Mathew, Bethnal Green.
Any thoughts please.

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