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Messages - Seany

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28
Immigrants & Emigrants - General / Re: Finding the parents of Joseph Henry Sydney from Calcutta, India
« on: Sunday 04 February 18 02:54 GMT (UK)  »
ShaunJ

You mentioned that you found the Witnesses of this wedding as M Theodore and S Quinliven. How did you go about finding that? Is it possible there are witnesses for the Birth of Joseph as well?

I can't see any marriages between them either. Perhaps they married in another country, but then there's the Quinliven witness in Rangoon. 

I thought a candidate for M Theodore would be Manuel Theodore who seemed to born in the 1810's and was mentioned as the father on many of his born in the 40's and marrying in the 50's and 60's in Rangoon. Though it's a stretch to think he'll be present at his daughter in Law's 2nd wedding if indeed his son was one of those.

I can't seem to find a Theodore dying that matches the bill. There's an Arthur Theodore born to Parents Samuel and Marie Theodore in Rangoon 1879, and mention of am Arthur Henricus Theodore dying Rangoon 1880. Might be the same child. Samuel could be the husband, but I can't attach him to anything. The baby puts the parents at least old enough to have been born in the 50's.
Mary Theodore on her Marriage cert. b. 1854 apparently.

The witnesses on the Marriage cert could be coincidental. The Quinliven factor does make a good case for it being Mary, and her having family living in the area at the time.

29
New Zealand Completed Requests / Re: The Illegitimate child of James Stephenson
« on: Sunday 04 February 18 02:06 GMT (UK)  »
Oh boy...

Lucy2. I feel like I'm reading the climax of a mystery novel. This has taken all my attention now. Thank you for putting so much into this! How does one even make connections like these? I'm having to really think this timeline through. So let me write what I understand so far.

Does this timeline sound correct?

1884, Mr Beatty dies shortly after moving his Liquor licence from the Albion Hotel to the Masonic Hotel.
1885, December. Roseann Beatty is widowed, takes over the licence of Masonic Hotel, Wellington.
1886 May, Rose applies for an Extension of the licence
1886 to 1890 -  James makes his move from Napier to Wellington, where he goes from being a Waiter, to a Hotelkeeper.
1890, June 2nd James Stevenson marries Roseann Beatty.
Rose had 3/4 Children of her own. Now aged Sixteen, Fourteen, Eleven and Nine. (Two of them, them James & Rosanne, appear on James' Rose's funeral notice)
Days later Rose Beatty/Stevenson Licence moves her licence to Metropolitan.
James is a hotelkeeper, living on Molesworth Street. (Maybe before or after marriage?)
Agnes travels between Christchurch for work.

1891
April – Not even a year into the marriage, there is possible lawsuit instigated by James against his wife. 
June – The Licence Committee find the licence name under Beatty doesn’t exist and ponder why it hasn’t been transferred yet to the husband of Rose Stevenson. They also decide single women shouldn't hold licenses in the future but doesn’t affect current holders. This may affect a future application in 1892…
July 4th - Agnes appears in Wellington before the courts regarding her husband. They mention she has 4 children. As itʼs the only time itʼs mentioned it could be a mistake with the paper, however since she declares that one baby was deceased itʼs possible this child was alive at the time. She may have been pregnant and had a stillborn this year, which would mean no certificates issued?
July 14th - The case is meant to be examined again with William Fullbrook present in Wellington.
October 19th -  Maintenance set at 30s in favour of Agnes from William, Wellington Court.


1892
January – Mrs Stephenson’s interest in the Metropolitan Hotel is deposed. Perhaps this is Rose reapplying for her application, instead going to an Annie Smith. (This conflicts with the licence body saying Single Women shouldn't hold licences, unless Annie is a married woman)
Feb or March - Margaret H M Fullbrook is conceived.
October 29th – Margaret H M Fullbrook is born.
November 7th – Agnes doesn’t appear in court for her maintenance case. Her husband William asks the court for the custody of his children, though he hadn’t made a formal application. His children would be about thirteen, eleven and seven years of age. I assume he would want baby Margaret to be left with Agnes.


1893.
James Stevenson lives at the Royal Oak Hotel as a Waiter
Rose Ann is living in Belfast Street, Wellington City.

1894
August. James has since moved to Masterton, working as Manager of the Club Hotel.

1896
James in living in Masterton as a Waiter, not far from Wellington.
Agnes Living in Hawke’s Bay, gets her divorce papers finalized, it’s here that in the papers she names James Stephenson who is a Waiter in Masterton

April – Announced that James is leaving The Club Hotel to go on to work at The Empire hotel. Perhaps owned by the same owner Joseph Mandell.
Another article on the matter https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP18960408.2.39
James is manager of the Empire Hotel as mentioned in a Newspaper article somewhere else too.

1907
November  – James announces the transfer his Brunswick Hotel Liquor licence to Thomas Butler in for 1908 March.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM19080129.2.80.4?query=%22James%20stevenson%22%20hotel%20wellington


1911,
James lives the Brunswick Hotel, as a Barman. Likely still run by Thomas Butler
Agnes lives in Wellington Central

1913
Rosanne Dies

1914
James lives at the Albion Hotel (Same hotel his wife’s previous husband managed)
Agnes lives in Wellington North, after having come home from a short stint in NSW.
 
1919
James lives
Agnes lives in Hawke’s Bay. A few years later she visits Australia again in 1921 and 1924


1927
James dies. Is it a good chance that’s him? When he died, the writer could get away with saying James was a proprietor at that Hotel with no repercussions.

So with all these coincidences. I may need to order myself the 1890 marriage cert to see what exactly is going on here. I feel like I'm going to have to reply to this thread several times to keep up.

I’ll write to get the divorce papers and see what I can find. It may be slow process.

30
New Zealand Completed Requests / Re: The Illegitimate child of James Stephenson
« on: Saturday 03 February 18 06:46 GMT (UK)  »
Lucy2, How do you work all this wizardy??
You've taken my main James and completely annihilated him. You must have some secret formula.

I honestly can't wait to hear a new theory about James.

Twiggy
I'll add what else I know about the NZ families. I'll mention the Fullbrooks. I know they might not have a lot to do with James Stevenson, but maybe one day someone might google their names and stumble upon this thread.

Stephen Round Fullbrook marries Ivy May Lamb in 1919 NZ
This next part I gathered from others on an Ancestry tree, but I believe they had a daughter named Gloria Ellen May Fullbrook. Not sure what happened to her. She married a man named Douglas Chadwin Carter somewhere. Douglas died in NSW, and Gloria may have remarried. They had a daughter named Stephanie Carter, as far as I could tell from a local paper.

Richard Outen Fullbrook marries Elfrida Margareta Rodewald. 1918 NZ
I see Richard dies in NSW 1952. Unclear what happened to Elfrida

Agnes Anne Matraners Fullbook marries George William Watson 1907 NZ
She already had Thomas Reuben Fullbrook in 1901 NZ.
After Marriage she had Eveline Agnes Watson 1908 NZ
They then moved to Sydney. Not sure what happens to George Watson, but she remarries a David Terence Harold in 1920. She's young enough to have another child, but public records only go so far back. Agnes died 1963 in NSW, parents William wood and Agnes Patton.

Thomas Fullbrook marries a girl named Edna May Cashion and have two children.
Merle Mary Fullbrook (who married Gordon John Heath in 1954. He died in NSW 2011, not sure what happened to Merle)
John Wesley Fullbrook
Thomas died 1965 in NSW with mother named Agnes Ann, no father listed.

That basically summarized what I know what Margaret's uncles, aunts and cousins.
Ideally I'd love to find Stephanie Carter and any children of Merle Fullbrook's children.

When it comes to Agnes's family. I just know she came out with I believe, her sister Eliza Jane Duff Moore. Who died in NZ, 1920, a spinster.

Jannette
Thank you for pointed out how I can narrow the dates. It's obvious now looking back!

31
Monmouthshire Lookup Requests / Re: Census 1861 lookup - Cooke, Pontypool
« on: Saturday 03 February 18 00:41 GMT (UK)  »
I haven't really any photos from that far back except photos of John and Mercy Cook, his brother and his wife. I'm glad to hear you're still out there. I'm hopping from Todd too. His broken hill is very new to  me.

All I have on Charles is where he he was living in Eaglehawk and Newcastle, along with newspaper articles of them. I'm after more photos of those days too.

I've spoken with a closer relative of yours. They have more on your side of the family going way back, I think. You could speak with them if you ever want to learn more about that side, or I can sometime send you what I have on Charles and Eleanor.

Sean


32
New Zealand Completed Requests / Re: The Illegitimate child of James Stephenson
« on: Friday 02 February 18 05:05 GMT (UK)  »
TwiggyTree, Lucy2

These timelines are amazing. I never thought there would be so much more information out there. I've just had no idea where to look.

Adding to your timeline Twiggy. Agnes seemed to have come across on the ship that Lucy2 pointed out in her latest article regarding the death of Agnes.

1874
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6X73-83V?i=57&cc=1609792
She came out with her sister who died here: 1920/366 Moore Eliza Jane Duff 73Y

Had her children
1879 Stephen Round (Round was his grandfather middle name, died in NZ 1944)
1881 Richard Outen (Outen after his mother's maiden name, died in NSW 1952)
1885 Agnes Anne Matraners (married Watson in NZ 1907, but had an Illegitimate child named Thomas Reuben Fullbrook, She remarried to a David Harold in 1920, which is what appears in the newspaper as the home she was when she died I believe)

1892 Margaret Howard Moore Fullbrook (had Jean Duffrin Fullbrook to one father, then 7 more to Joseph Henry Sydney ca 1915 onwards)

I don't have Margaret's birthday other than the Birth cert for her on the NZ BDM site is 1892?. But based on the 1891 article, she must be born before July 1891. So I understand you question now.

Interestingly, on her death cert, under Children of marriage, it says
Sephen 45
Richard 43
Annie 39
Daisy 32
       Living
1 Baby Deceased (Hard to read, I believe is says this)

I wonder whose baby this was. James having the first one and casting into doubt Margaret's legitimacy? Both James' or the last one being Williams before Margaret with James?

There is also this article I found quite amazing. Notice how she goes by her Maiden name. Moore.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/parliamentary/appendix-to-the-journals-of-the-house-of-representatives/1898/I/4013
It goes for 2 pages, but describes her life after she made her 'Mistake'

So 1896, Agnes and James were living nearby eachother?
Thanks again Twiggy for making such a timeline. I didn't have even half of that, so it really helps paint a picture of what she was up to.

That Gazette saying James might of went North or to NSW is a possibility. I wonder if that might have been the reason for Agnes moving over? or if James does indeed die in NZ. If he had been in NZ for 20 years, That would have him arriving around 1865? maybe that can narrow the years down a little.

33
Europe / Re: My Prussian relative and his origins
« on: Friday 02 February 18 01:27 GMT (UK)  »
Hey Everyone Thanks for your help so far. I spent some time looking over the Schauers in Stettin for those Churches and couldn't find any of the names I was after. Perhaps their church wasn't one of the 4 in Familysearch? I was browsing for quite awhile to find anything on Schauer.


Davecapps
The Documents I have relating to Herman include

His Aug 1871 Marriage Cert in Bendigo, Victoria, Written down as
Herman Julius Schauer. Bachelor and Miner. Born in Stettin Russia. Age 31 (so b. about 1840)
Son of Carl Schauer (Locksmith) and Auguste Hertz (appears so, maybe Harz, the writing is tiny, but his death cert has Hertz for mother)
(Fun fact. His daughter Auguste Frederika Schauer b. 1881 may have been named after his mother)

I have an Unassisted passenger of Mr Schauer, age 30, listed as Irish coming of a 9 April 1869 ship to Melbourne called Gothenburg from the port of Greymouth.
My thought here is the age matches and he might have been hiding his nationality? How many Irish Schauers could there be? It only puts his age out about 12 months. from the marriage cert. but if this ship document is incorrect, it doesn't change his origin story from Stettin.

I have Herman Julius Schauer dying in 1844, Bairnsdale Victoria. Apparently he died age 44 (1844) which would be 5 years off, but all the papers in that area prove him to be from the right family, and death cert of the right parents.

I have the marriage listing from ancestry of the book "Evangelische Kirche Sankt Jacobi Prenzlau (KrSt. Prenzlau)" on 25 Jun 1863 of a Herrmann Julius Schauer.
Age 24 (So b. about 1839)
Father listed as Carl Heinrich Schauer
Married Charlotte Auguste Tugedrich Buhro
Prenzlau, Brandenburg, Preuben

I have from Familysearch a son
Paul Max Franz Oscar born and buried the same year 1868, Berlin, Brandenburg, Germany.
Father: Herman Schauer with no mother's name.

Though now as I write this. I see that there there there was another couple named:
Hermann Julius Schauer & Catherine Sophie Elmeier. who had 2 Children in nearby int he city of: BARTHOLOMAEUS, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA
1.) Franz Friedrich Schauer 1867
2.) Hermann Arthur Schauer 1869
So maybe this Paul Max Franz Oscar Schauer could be theirs.

I've mentioned this document too, This time, from the book "Evangelische Kirche Sankt Marien Prenzlau"
Charlotte Auguste Tugendreich Schauer marrying a Karl Heinruch Otto Rohde in 1886, Prenzlau, Brandenburg, Preuben. Her father was Johnn Christian Friedrich Buhrow.

Lastly. From familysearch I find the parents Carl Heinrich Schauer with Julie Auguste Schauer
They had children the.

1840 Brabow Stettin, Pommern, Prussia
1842 Neuwarp, Pommern, Prussua
1845 Neuwarp, Pommern, Prussua
1846 Neuwarp, Pommern, Prussua
etc...

Since their 1840 child was born in Stettin, which is only down the road from Neuwarp, I assumed that Hermann born probably 1839 would have been born there too to these same parents who moved after their 1840 child. Since I haven't haven't found Herman Julius Schauer's baptism yet.

I haven't got an Ancestry subscription, or anything like it. I just find the info where I can.

34
Immigrants & Emigrants - General / Re: Finding the parents of Joseph Henry Sydney from Calcutta, India
« on: Friday 02 February 18 00:29 GMT (UK)  »
Hey! I didn't realize there was a free option to explore Fibis. That's great. Though not many Sydney's there at all.

If it was annexed in 1886 when Joseph was born in India, and then George and Mary married in 1887 in Burma. They may have moved there when the Annexation was still fresh. Which may mean that all records of Rangoon relating to Quinliven and Theodore aren't so reliable. Would be more likely that Quinlivens and Theodores where somewhere else in India before 1887? Is that good logic?

35
Wicklow / Re: The Clark and Talbot families of Wicklow
« on: Friday 02 February 18 00:24 GMT (UK)  »
I think it'll remain an ifuntil I take out Catherine's Marriage cert in Australia.

The information I began with came from her Birth Cert, looking for Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot from Wicklow that had an Annie Clark about 1849. That lead to a finding a certificate of an 1850 certificate for her with the same parents which upon reading the original turns out to be for a John, not a an Ann.

If Annie Clark isn't the 1850 child born in Blackditches. Maybe She's still their child, but hiding on the faded pages of the church papers? but I cant find her. Or maybe she's of another Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot out there in another Wicklow County. It's all so frustrating  ???

It doesn't help that on page 18, there's a chunk missing where I think I can see the Someone born on the 25th or so. Completely faded. I think I read the words Kelly and Clark on that page? Am I seeing things? There are so many Clarkes in that town.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633353#page/18/mode/1up

I don't know how I can narrow down which part of Ireland she if from if the Marriage cert is my best idea. Wicklow isn't exactly small.


36
Wicklow / Re: The Clark and Talbot families of Wicklow
« on: Thursday 01 February 18 09:42 GMT (UK)  »
Hallmark

I did put a bit too much trust in the document I was given. It wasn't actually from a persons tree, but the transcribed text of the same document you showed me on Ancestry. At least, what Ancestry believed that document to say. A professional or computer would have made that mistake. Had you not shown me the document. I may have accepted it. Her birthday should fit between Michael 1847 and John 1850. Her marriage cert did put her birthdate about 1849.  (Aug 1871. minus 22 years)

I want to contribute as much as I can, and no way take advantage all this great help you've given me so far.

I noticed the marriage cert had the names a John and Bridget Kelly as well as Richard Talbot on it.
I then saw a Thomas Kelly on Michael Clark's Baptism. I see Thomas is on the Griffiths Valuations too at Boystown or Baltyboys, Lower.

Heywood,
You said, Michael Clarke (1836) has Godparents Michael and Judith Clarke.
The 1836 Clark doesn't have Catherine's maiden name, whereas the 1847 one does. A reason to be 2 Michaels in the family. Perhaps this one passed away or from a different branch?

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