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Messages - phil57

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217
I have tested with Living DNA but am still trying to get onto Ancestry as my samples keep failing processing. I uploaded my Living DNA raw data to GEDmatch and had a match with another kit at 37.5 cM which I investigated and turned out to be a 4C1R. Her original upload to GEDmatch was from MyHeritage.

But, she has also tested with LivingDNA, and we match at 54.2cM on their site. I don't know, but I assume that Living DNA may be counting smaller segments in their total match length that other sites disregard due to the higher possibility of false positives.

Have you investigated your Living DNA match for any hints of common ancestry? If you can persuade them to upload to GEDmatch and you do the same, you can see a breakdown of the matching segments by chromosome and segment lengths using the comparison tools. If that shows a single fairly large shared segment amongst the total, it's probably worth pursuing, but it could also show that your match is comprised of several much smaller segments. GEDmatch ignore segments less than 7cM by default.

I'm no expert, but from what I've read any single segment of more than 15cM should be considered at least 99% probability of being inherited by descent. So it really depends how your match is made up by segment sizes.

218
The Common Room / Re: 1939 Register - see page 16
« on: Saturday 22 May 21 13:19 BST (UK)  »
Thanks to you both. Just a bit baffled why her name should be crossed out. Thanks again though.

See section 8 in the National archives link that Jon_ni posted above. It explains why and where you might locate the "new" entry.

219
Somerset / Searching for legal case from 1794-1825
« on: Saturday 22 May 21 11:37 BST (UK)  »
I have recently obtained copies of a number of documents relating to my Gx6th, 5th and 4th grandfathers, from SWHT. The documents are in a collection of papers belonging to the DICKINSON family of Kingweston, and concern lands and property that was sold to them by George HODGES of Charlton Adam. In short, the lands involved originally formed part of the estate of George's grandfather, and were inherited by his son Henry HODGES (George's father) who died in 1758. In his Will, he left his estate in trust, to be equally divided between family members including a living son and daughter (Jane) and the as yet unborn George with whom his wife was pregnant at the time of his death, who were each to receive their share upon reaching the age of 21 years.

A complicated story involving several family tragedies resulted in George assuming possession of the entire estate, some of which he disposed of in following years, Jane's entitlement having apparently been "overlooked" despite her reaching full age during that period.

In October 1794, the two surviving daughters of George's sister Jane (their mother also by then deceased) appear to have sought legal advice on claiming the share of the estate that should rightfully have been their mothers, and subsequently theirs. The document relating to that advice is a Case for Opinion re ELLIS and BARRETT versus George HODGES. I assume it was within the DICKINSON family collection as they had purchased several parcels of land and properties from George HODGES, which had been part of his father's estate. From the married names of Jane's daughters and various searches, I have managed to find their mother's marriage, the name of their father, each of their own marriages and the names of their husbands.

Other than the advice contained in the Case for Opinion, which indicated that the two daughters had a good claim but would have to pursue a recovery through the courts, there is no record of whether any case was pursued or the result. There are however copies of certified extracts from parish registers proving the descent of George HODGES from his grandfather, obtained in 1825, which could either suggest that the matter had gone on for some time, or had reared its head again directly in connection with the DICKINSONs' acquisitions.

Is there any way of finding out if a case against George was pursued by the daughters, and the result please? I have no idea where to start looking. Their married names were Mary ELLIS and Ruth BARRETT. Mary and Ruth died in 1835 and 1828 respectively, George in 1838.

220
In my admittedly limited experience, you will be very lucky if you can actually identify relatives who share the same surname as you, your parents, grandparents or even their immediate ancestors, more often that not. It's more a matter of trusting that over a certain match threshold, your chances of being related are significant to a very high percentage, but you have to put some work in to find the relationship.

You can start by taking your tree back as far as you can go and then working forward again on as many collateral lines as you can, to as near the present time as possible, as 3rd, 4th and 5th cousins may well have names you have never heard of, but can still be instrumental in confirming the accuracy of your other research.

The amount of DNA that you share with a possible match can be entered on the DNA Painter site, and will help with an indication of the possible relationships you are likely looking at, and how many generations back you need to consider exploring. The tools available on GEDmatch are also very useful, particularly after you have obtained a few proven matches and can compare chromosomes and segments that you match on, against those for new matches, that can indicate the possible family line that connects you.

As an example, I explored a match with someone whose name meant nothing to me. We exchanged parents and grandparents names, and none of those meant anything to either of us, but she had  several relatives who came from the same area of the country as my grandmother. I took that line of her family further back using GRO and census searches, but it petered out when it went over to Ireland, and I have no known links in that direction.

Then I happened to notice that one particular ancestor of her mothers, who I will refer to as Mr. SMITH, three generations back, had been born in a town where I knew that the family of the person who I believed to be my orphaned grandfather were from. My matches' tree hadn't been explored beyond that point, and as I wasn't that sure about the identities of my grandfather's parents and ancestors, that part of my tree was pretty sparse as well. So I set about researching those lines in both my tree and my possible matches' tree. I found that a Miss SMITH had married one of my suspected Gx3 grandfathers, and that one of Miss SMITH's brothers was a direct ancestor of my matches' grandmother.

So I had a set of shared Gx4 grandparents with that match, which supported the link to my suspected grandmother. I also investigated another possible match with a name that again meant nothing to me, and he similarly turned out to be a 4th cousin linking me to my grandfather's suspected paternal line. Neither match on their own would have been wholly conclusive, but with matches linking me to both maternal and paternal sides of the family, I'm now pretty happy that my suspicions are correct. If I'd just looked at the names and discounted both matches on the basis that they meant nothing to me, I'd still have no idea where my grandfather was from!

I can also recommend a book called Tracing Your Ancestors Using DNA, edited by Graham S. Holton. It covers DNA investigation in some depth, but in a way that makes it easy for someone with no previous knowledge to understand, and I found it well worth reading and still reference it from time to time.

So my advice would be not to get dispirited, but don't expect matches to simply fall into your lap and have everything fit straight into place. You may have to do some (or quite a lot) of investigative work, either jointly with your match or perhaps investigating their tree yourself, before you find the links.

Good luck!

221
The Common Room / Re: Completed - Great Grandparents married twice
« on: Saturday 24 April 21 12:05 BST (UK)  »
Thank you both, you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts. I was just wondering if there might be something I had missed or wasn't aware of.

Both were CofE marriages. The witnesses at the first wedding were not related to either party as far as I can ascertain. One of them is shown simply as "Charles".

The bride's parents were the witnesses at the second ceremony.

There were no children born prior to the second marriage, but their only child (my GF) was born just over three months after the second marriage, so could well have been the catalyst. There were two children from her first marriage who lived with them as well.

222
The Common Room / Completed - Great Grandparents married twice
« on: Saturday 24 April 21 09:44 BST (UK)  »
My GGF married his wife in church in 1885. At the time he was a bachelor, and she gave her status as a widow, but in fact she was still married to her first husband who it appears was likely incapacitated and in a workhouse. The first husband died in the workhouse in December 1887.

In July 1888 GGM and GGF married again, this time in a different but still local church, again recorded as bachelor and widow.

Whilst I realise the second marriage would have probably taken place to legitimise their union, would this have been a matter of personal guilt or preference, or would there have been other (e.g. legal) reasons that might have rendered it a necessity?

Another of my ancestors married 5 times, two of which were bigamous, yet he didn't repeat either ceremony when circumstances could have allowed them to be "legitimised".

223
England / Where was Frances Annie HUMPHRIES between 1891 and 1920?
« on: Monday 05 April 21 15:25 BST (UK)  »
Frances Annie HUMPHRIES was born in Salford, Lancs in April 1890 (GRO 1890/Q2/Salford/8d/023) the daughter of John Richard HUMPHRIES and Frances Honor LEESE. Her mother died 12 days after the birth, and in the April 1891 census she was to be found as a "nurse child" living with Edwin and Elizabeth BOWEN in Barton-upon-Irwell, Lancs, albeit entered as Frances Annie HUMPHREYS on the census form.

Her father had remarried in January 1891 and was still living in Salford with his new wife Amelia, Frances' older brother Robert and two step-daughters.

By the date of the 1901 census, Frances was no longer listed with the BOWENS, who had taken in a 27 year old William CORDWELL as a boarder. Her father JR HUMPHRIES appears in the 1901 census in Manchester, with her brother Robert, both as boarders in the home of Edward and Mary ROSE, his short marriage to Amelia apparently over, as she had remarried in the first quarter of 1894, to Matthew Aloysius SPAIN in Blackburn.

In 1902 her father remarried again and can be found as John Richard HUMPHREYS in the 1911 census, still in Manchester with his latest wife Mary, their 9 year old daughter Sybil (probably illegitimate, but that's another story) and Kate? MEARBECK, a boarder.

In August 1920 Frances Annie married Herbert Samuel MURDEN in Egleton, Rutland. She appears to have known her father's name and occupation well enough for them to accurately appear in the marriage register. A Louisa GREGORY and Thomas William GREGORY were both witnesses at the wedding, and Frances Annie referred to them subsequently as her "brother and sister by adoption".

Louisa and Thomas William were two children of Arthur and Sarah GREGORY, who lived in Egleton, so it would seem that Frances Annie had been adopted by that family at some time. Again however, she does not appear in their household in either the 1901 or 1911 censuses, nor can I find her elsewhere in Egleton - or anywhere else for that matter.

I have found a Frances Annie HUMPHREYS in the 1911 census in Bradford, a servant aged 18 years, born at Lincoln, St. Swithin's Parish. But I believe she is Frances Annie HUMPHREY, born in Lincoln R.D. GRO 1893/Q2/Lincoln/7a/543.

So can anyone help me to try and find Frances please?

224
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Abbreviation V.J.C.
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 12:33 GMT (UK)  »
Yes, that would make sense. He was ex-RN.

Thank you.

225
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Abbreviation V.J.C.
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 11:10 GMT (UK)  »
This writing on a postcard from London in 1957 relates to a journey from Devon to Hastings, I assume by train.

Can anyone suggest what the abbreviation V.J.C. refers to please? Anything to do with Victoria station, or related overnight accommodation, perhaps?

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