Hawkers

[dylan]

Looking for any tips on Tracing Hawkers in 1841
I am at a solid wall,

I have been looking for my Cleverly ancesters for years and have found them back to1851 they were in the east Sussex areas and settled in Hastings in 1861, any clues welcome
thanks
Dylan

[Chris in 1066Land]

Hi Dylan

Welcome to Rootschat - nice to have you onboard.

Hawkers are always going to be difficult to trace as they moved where trade was good - and in the early to mid 1800's, the seaside revolution was underway, aided by the railways.

What exactly are you looking for, you say you have them back to 1851 - is that through the census records?  Where does it say their birthplaces were.

Had a look on 1841 census for Hastings - but no Cleverly listed at all.

The more you can tell us, the more we can help you

Chris in 1066Land

[Boongie Pam]

Hi Dylan,

Welcome.

I am interested in the same subject - I have more than a few licensed hawkers in my family.  When I get home I'm going to dig out a wee book about gypsies because if memory serves me there is a paragraph on finding hawker licences.

Pam
 

[dylan]

hi, Re my Hawkers,
My G G Grandmother was Miriam  Cleverly, she was born in 1827 in Heathfield, in the 1851 census she was in  Netherfield living in tents with Mathew Mitchell as his wife and there  3 children.by 1861 they had settled in Hastings and married there in 1864,I am hopeing I might be able to find them in the 1841  census  somewhere to see who she was with them,as on her birth her father is given as William and on her Marriage he is given as Thomas,I believe the latter to be the correct one.as I have found a marriage for him in Bexhill in 1822
What a headache they are giveing me
Many thanks
Dylan

[Sasha]

Pam - if you can find the information on hawkers licences I'd be interested in that too.

Dylan - the only thing I can suggest it to take a look at the Romany & Traveller family history society if you've not already done that - http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/

Sasha. 

[Boongie Pam]

Phew, finaly found it...

My Ancestors were gypsies
Sharon Sillers Floate

SoG publication http://www.sog.org.uk

(Excerpt p45) Occupational Records

Some occupations treaditionally followed by Gypsies were subject to government regulation and required licences.

As one example, those for hawkers and pedlars (*The difference being pedlars travelled on foot and hawkers by horse) were first introduced in 1697.  The PRO at Kew holds registers of these Hawker licences dating from 1697 to 1699.  These contain information on 4000 people but disappointingly few obvious Gypsy names. [NB: PRO ref A03/370 &371]

Licences and certificates were also issued by the quarter sessions for the following trades in the 18th & 19th centuries: pedlars, hawkers, chimney sweeps, higglers and kidders (hawkers of corn & meal) and badgers (dealers in corn and other foods).

For the where abouts of quarter sessions records containing possible references to licences granted and details to those which have been printed, use Jeremy Gibson's Quarter Sessions Records for Family Historians.

From 1870 the responsibility for the licensing of pedlars and hawkers was passed to the police.  They were also responsible for issuing certificates to chimney sweeps, another trade that gypsies sometimes followed.

It seems highly unlikely that many gypsies of the 18th or early 19th centuries would have bothered to approach teh authorities for licence to trade.  But as the 19th century progressed and such legislation became more vigorously enforced, you will find many gypsies describing themselves in census returns as "Licenced Hawker" and should therefore find that their names are included in licensing registers.  Licensing of this kind was continued into the 20th century.

For information on what police records have survived consult Bridgeman and Emsley's A guide to the Archives of the Police Forces of England and Wales.  This gives a county-by-county listing of material that continued to be held by modern day police forces in 1992, the dates of publication - covering both licensing registers and criminal records, 2 random examples from it being:

Huntingdonshire County Constabulary
  Register of Pedlars 1877-1967

West Riding of Yorkshire
  Pedlars and chimney sweeps certificates 1886-1930

In some counties police forces may have deposited their records with the local county record office.

Hope this helps you track down your elusive relies.

On one of the pages it gives an example cert from 1936 it has name, address, age and appearance.  So for 1840s the quarter sessions look like the best bet.

All the best,
Pam
 

[madbadrob]

Right ho lets start at the beginning.  Why do people assume that Hawkers were gypsies?  They weren't.  All a hawker did was carry his wares on his back.  Thats the definition of the trade.  Yes licences may still be about but dont hold your breath and dont expect them to tell you anything.  All they will say is that XYZ is licenced to ply hos goods on the street.  Basically the same as the modern equivalent does.

Pam thx for the description and its very illuminating.  Higglers were always associated with mining or so I believed so I have learnt something

Back to the original poster.  Have you got a copy of the birth certificate? If so who is the informant?  If it is the mother then you may well have her telling porkies to turn an illigitimate birth into a legit one.  Check the baptism records to confirm.  If it the father who informed the registrar then the marriage in Bexhill is the wrong one.  Secondly for a Hawker family he doesn't seem to have travelled to far.  Mountfield to Netherfield  = 3 miles at the most.  Mountfield to Hastings about 10 miles.  Bexhill to Netherfield about 10 miles.  Knowing those areas they weren't to populated so wouldn't have been a very good selling area for a hawker although Battle would have been.  Maybe ask Chris1066 to have a look the next time he visits Lewes

Rob

[Boongie Pam]

Right ho lets start at the beginning.  Why do people assume that Hawkers were gypsies? 

Duuurrr Rob!  No assumption made, sunshine, it's an excerpt from a book about tracing your Gypsy ancestory and it lists many other occupations but the poster asked about hawkers. So smoke it!  By the way how are you 

The census was taken earlier in the year when many travelling folk - commercial or social, are in the wintering areas there for they look like they never left home. 

Anyway good luck all (even you rob, sweetheart)

P

[Sasha]

Pam,

Thanks for the information.   

Whilst the licence might not give many details, if it gives the appearance of the holder, like the example you gave, it would be worth getting a copy just for that.  And I didn't know that a hawker travelled by horse.

Rob, I only suggested the Romany & Traveller fhs as it covers both gypsies and travellers.  My husband's hawkers were definately gypsies - I've also got a hawker on my side who's not so I wasn't making any assumptions.  From the mid 1850's onwards all of mine, gypsy or not, were in roughly the same place each year on the census returns - whether they moved far during the rest of the year I do not know.

Sasha.