help mystery joseph how do I trace him

[Valda]

In the end the 1911 census might help confirm it further by showing a Joseph with a father William with the right occupation in Worcester. The 1911 census however will not be released until 2012.

In the meantime does anyone still alive in your family remember whether your grandfather had any siblings?

For information on the Worcester workhouse you need to look at this website

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Worcester/Worcester.shtml

The Guardian's minutes - records held at Worcester record Office might just mention the names of some people employed at the workhouse, though I don't know that that will help any in placing William.

1891 census RG12 2325 folio 45
19 Bridge Street All Saints  Worcestershire   
Redding, Samuel Joseph 37 Worcestershire,  Head  Married plumber
Redding, Fanny 34 Worcestershire,  Wife Married
Redding, Evelyn Sarah 12 Worcestershire, Daughter 
Redding, Winifred Mary 11 Worcestershire, Daughter   
Redding, George Ravenscroft 9 Worcestershire, Son 
Holland, Fanny 21 Worcestershire, Cousin

Fanny Redding's maiden name was Ravenscroft. I have no idea how this Fanny Holland was connected to the Reddings and or Ravenscrofts, but unless she turns out to be your great grandmother it won't much matter. There is no evidence as yet that this Fanny is the same Fanny in 1901 who is married to a Smith.

1871 census RG10 3049 folio 24
33 York Place Tything of Whistones  Worcestershire   
John R Smith 23 Worcestershire, Head  Married Hosier's assistant (on later censuses the R stands for Richard)
Alice Smith 20 Worcestershire, Wife  Married
Alfred Holland 16 Worcestershire, Brother-in-law Tailor
Clara J Holland 10  Worcestershire, Sister-in-law
Laura Holland 8 Worcestershire, Sister-in-law
John Holland 32 Worcestershire, Visitor Head Married Grocer
Eliza A Holland 31 Worcestershire, Visitor Wife, Married
Fanny Holland 2  Worcestershire, Visitor Daughter
------- (son) Holland under 1 mth Worcestershire, Visitor son
Fanny Griffiths 17  Worcestershire, Visitor

Alice's maiden name was Holland. She and John Richard Smith went onto have two children Charles Frederick born circa 1872 and Alice Maud born circa 1883, both born Worcester.
This Fanny Holland of course might not be the same as the Fanny with the Reddings etc. (though these are the only one of this age in Worcestershire) and the Smith connection could just be coincidental since sooner or later with such a common surname every family will get some connection with a Smith.

The only Fanny Holland of the right age on the 1881 census in Worcestershire is this one. There is no evidence that this is the same family other than some of the names and ages are similar.

RG11 2919 folio 89
Poolend St, Great Malvern, Worcestershire
John Holland 44  Buckinghamshire, Head Married  Gardener
Eliza Holland 43 Kings Pyon, Hereford,  Wife Married (on the 1891 census she is a widow in Malvern aged 53 born Dudley Staffordshire, still born Dudley in 1901)
Fanny Holland 10  Malvern, Worcestershire,  Daughter
Mary A. Holland 8  Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter 
Emila Holland 6 Malvern, Worcestershire,  Daughter 
Lily L. Holland 4  Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter   
Leonard Holland 2 Malvern, Worcestershire,  Son
 
It gets worse if you go to the 1861 census with places of birth and occupations
RG9 2108 folio 94
Rose Cottage Chesnut Walk Claines  Worcestershire   
John Holland 21 St Nicholas, Worcestershire, Head Married Coach trimmer
Eliza A Holland 20  Claines, Worcestershire, Wife  Married
Frederic Holland 1  Claines, Worcestershire, Son
John Holland 5mths  Claines, Worcestershire, Son 
Jane Amphlett 13  Claines, Worcestershire, House Servant

In 1858 in Evesham registration district a John Holland married an Eliza Ann Griffiths (in 1871 a Fanny Griffiths was staying with John Holland, she is with her family in 1861 in Claines - with them is James Amphlett nephew)
Next door to John Holland in 1861 is a Griffiths family but no Fanny and a further door away are

James Holland 66 Worcester City Married Retired builder
Elizabeth Holland 62 Worcester City Married
Sarah Holland 25 Worcester City Daughter
Charles 13 Worcester City Grandson

Trying to work out whether all these censuses are the same family would take Fanny's birth certificate for her mother's maiden and her marriage certificate to prove it was Fanny Holland who married William Smith and had a father called John. So really only worth untangling if there seems any evidence that it is worth doing so and you are some way off that. Otherwise untangling all these Hollands is really somebody's else's problem.

Regards
Valda

[jaxishere]

Valda

I went to our records office today to see if I could find anything about the work house staff

I found the information about the staff wages Joseph smith (granddad) was there.  It had his D O B 23rd July 1898 born Worcester when he stated work there, how much he earned each week. He was a assistant labour master when he stated in June 1922 and 6 months later became Labour Master

It did not say when he stopped working there , but it did say on 8/10/31 he was made non resident. He must have lived their with my Gran when they married in 1925. 
My mom was born in 1932 and in 1933
I have him in on the electoral register living in Worcester address

I am ordering his birth cert , WILL this now help me to trace his parents or will I need their Birth certs

jacqui

[Valda]

One step at a time. It looks from the workhouse records that the DOB July 1898 confirms that it is the right birth certificate to order as July is in September quarter.
Once you have the information about the parents from the birth certificate - particularly the mother's maiden name, as well as her first name it will help confirm whether anything so far from the censuses fits with the birth information - mother's name, address etc.
A decision can then be made where to go next dependent on that birth information. If it fits with the census information or if it doesn't fit will effect the way to go.
Really good information from the workhouse records - that really exceeded my expectations.

Regards
Valda

[jaxishere]

hi
I received the birth cert today for joseph

His mother was Mary Smith maiden Name Townsend
Father William Smith as already knew.
Occupation of father general labourer (so do not know why it had scaffoler on marriage cert)
born 12 Angel Row worcester

So Fanny and the holland family are note the right ones

Yet when eveyone on here was helping me by looking up on census  no mary smith came up

i would welcome any help
Thank you
Jacqui

[janan]

Hi Jacqui
I can only find the Joseph Smith already found    Searched for the address  but although Angel Row exists no number 12  I hope someone else has better luck.
Jan

[jaxishere]

Some of Angel Row is still there today but its night clubs down there now.

I have looked through the parish records for that area and nothing. It is the same area as bull walk was ( the next street) so I looked all through the parish records for marriages baptisms and burials  when I was looking for a Joseph son of fanny. She was not there nor was there any other smith.

I thought the birth cert was going to help but it seems I have hit another brick wall. He and his family are turning into even more of a mystery now

[janan]

As Bull Walk is very near Angel Row then the Joseph there with mother Fanny may well be yours - she could be Mary known as Fanny, perhaps a Mary Frances
Jan

[janan]

Found this

Marriage
1891 March qtr Mary Ann Townsend with William Smith on same page
Worcester Vol4c Pg411

I think a Mary Ann could well be known as Fanny. Now we need to track her in previous censuses. And where is William in 1901 if we're on the right lines?
Jan

[jaxishere]

You are all so good at finding things on here

If this is the lady, then she was not married on 5th september 1898 when she registered the birth.  Yet it has  mother, Mary Smith formerly Townsend
Signature of informant is x the mark of mary smith 12 Angel row
so she lied about being a smith?

Would Ann be the middle name? as there is mary  first name and mary ann first name

jacqui