Author Topic: Query on Civil Registration  (Read 3046 times)

Offline Valda

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 26 November 05 13:40 GMT (UK) »
The change to the initial Act for the registration of births and deaths (the Act of 1836 which also covered marriages) was in 1874. This was the Act of Parliament which brought in fines for none registration. It came into effect in 1875, so over 37 years after the initial act was applied in July 1837.
Taking over 37 years to rectify the problem isn't quite my idea of soon enough!

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline 1000xlch

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 26 November 05 19:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi All

Just a query Valda re the marriage act.  I have a couple who were living together in 1881 census and had a first child in 1882.  I cannot find any marriage of them at all either via registrars, parish records or BMD index from the GRO.  They should be in Staffordshire around the Cannock, Hednesford area.  The question is would they have been fined for non registration of marriage?

John Rowley
DUNN - Cambuslang, LKS
FORSYTH - Shotts, LKS
FRAME - Hamilton, LKS
HODGSON - Hamsterley, DUR
HUMPHREY - Easingwold, NRY
HUNT - Frimley, Surrey
MCKECHNIE - Argyll - Shotts
NETHERCLIFF(T)/ DRAYCOTT Sandhurst, BKS
PEPPERCORN - Lolworth, Cambs
PRATT - Thirsk, NYK
REDSHAW - Hamsterley, DUR
REYNOLDS - Fritton,Stratton,NFK
ROWLEY - STS to DUR
TALLACK - St Agnes Padstow,CON
WALMSLEY - NRY,Brum
WILSON - Hamsterley, Co Durham
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 26 November 05 20:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi All

Just a query Valda re the marriage act. I have a couple who were living together in 1881 census and had a first child in 1882. I cannot find any marriage of them at all either via registrars, parish records or BMD index from the GRO. They should be in Staffordshire around the Cannock, Hednesford area. The question is would they have been fined for non registration of marriage?

John Rowley

No the marriage is registered at the time by the couple, registrar (or officiating minister) and witnesses signing the register.
It therefore follows if the marriage is not in the register the couple were not married.
This is different from births and deaths.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline 1000xlch

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 26 November 05 20:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi Guy

I know that on the birth certs of the children of this couple the mother was listed with married name and then the maiden name in brackets.  Perhaps this was convenience rather than actually being married.  On her death cert she is listed with hre married name.  Do I then presume then that they were married even though I cannot find an entry?

Thanks

John Rowley
DUNN - Cambuslang, LKS
FORSYTH - Shotts, LKS
FRAME - Hamilton, LKS
HODGSON - Hamsterley, DUR
HUMPHREY - Easingwold, NRY
HUNT - Frimley, Surrey
MCKECHNIE - Argyll - Shotts
NETHERCLIFF(T)/ DRAYCOTT Sandhurst, BKS
PEPPERCORN - Lolworth, Cambs
PRATT - Thirsk, NYK
REDSHAW - Hamsterley, DUR
REYNOLDS - Fritton,Stratton,NFK
ROWLEY - STS to DUR
TALLACK - St Agnes Padstow,CON
WALMSLEY - NRY,Brum
WILSON - Hamsterley, Co Durham
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 26 November 05 20:29 GMT (UK) »
I would err the other way and assume they were not married until I had proof of the marriage.

Many women legally take the name of the man they live with without being married to them. (ie. Elizabeth Bloggs)
On registering a birth or baptism they then simply use that name as the child's surname all perfectly legal and commonly done.

What may not be done (unless the father is present at the registration) is to say Joe Bloggs is the father of this child Fred Bloggs.
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline Valda

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 26 November 05 20:30 GMT (UK) »
The couple can't non-registered their marriage. It is not in their power to do so. When (and if) they married they had a registrar present, either at the registrar's office or at a non-conformist church. In the case of the Anglican church the vicar would act in the place of the registrar. These officials were responsible for seeing that copies of the certificate of marriage went to the local registrar's office, where the local registrar was also responsible for making sure a further copy was made of each certificate and sent onto the General Registry Office in London (hence when you purchase a marriage certificate from them you are always seeing a copy of a copy, not a copy of the original certificate). The officials present at the ceremony therefore register the marriage not the couple.

Reasons for why you might not have found the marriage you are looking for.

There may have been some impediment to the couple marrying e.g. a previous marriage, or the marriage if it occurred, would have been within the prohibited degrees (e.g. sister of dead wife or brother of dead husband) so they in fact did not marry, or married far later than you would expect and out of area.

They did get around to marrying , just not when you expected it. I have found marriages several to many years later for no reason I can see, the couple chose not to marry until later.

They did marry but one of them at least married in a surname you were not expecting e.g. the women was a widow, something you have not picked up from the birth certificates of her children which only give her maiden name.

One or other or both of the couple are missing from the GRO index because of the faulty nature of the index itself (something I have already touched on). If they married out of area your trawl of the local registrars' offices or the incomplete BMD (for I think only parts of Staffordshire?? and not the surrounding counties) would not find them. If you have only checked FreeBMD for the GRO index then you might not find them because this transcription is also incomplete.

Or finally they just didn't get married - something a surprising number of couples chose to do in the C19th. After all unless they were middle class with property and money to leave, marriage was not a financial necessity. The church demanded a ceremony should occur, but up until Hardwick's marriage Act of 1753 clandestined marriages were acceptable as was the old tradition of jumping back and forth over a broomstick.

What was the name of your couple and where were they in 1881?

Regards
Valda




Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline 1000xlch

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 27 November 05 19:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda

My great grandfather was called John Rowley (b1858 Wolverhampton) and he married a Mary Maria Monnington Powell (b 1856 Pensnett, Kingswinford, father was John Payne Powell).  In the 1881 census he is living with his wife and his younger sister at Green Heath, Hednesford, Staffs.  No children.  His first child is born 1882 and I now have all the birth certs for the 7 children, the youngest was my grandfather.  They were all born in and around Hednesford area and they moved in 1891 to Rugeley about 3 miles up the road.  1899 they have moved to Co Durham to Sunny Brow near Willington.  I have searched manually the GRO index at archives in Nottingham (I live in Loughborough) from 1899 backwards to about 1876 and cannot find a matching entry.  SKS on rootschat looked them up online as they had some spare credits, still found no one.  Registrars are drawing a blank in Rugeley, Cannock and Dudley.  Have spent 7 years looking for this marriage and cannot find it.  I can only assume they did not marry.  Any ideas appreciated.

John Rowley
DUNN - Cambuslang, LKS
FORSYTH - Shotts, LKS
FRAME - Hamilton, LKS
HODGSON - Hamsterley, DUR
HUMPHREY - Easingwold, NRY
HUNT - Frimley, Surrey
MCKECHNIE - Argyll - Shotts
NETHERCLIFF(T)/ DRAYCOTT Sandhurst, BKS
PEPPERCORN - Lolworth, Cambs
PRATT - Thirsk, NYK
REDSHAW - Hamsterley, DUR
REYNOLDS - Fritton,Stratton,NFK
ROWLEY - STS to DUR
TALLACK - St Agnes Padstow,CON
WALMSLEY - NRY,Brum
WILSON - Hamsterley, Co Durham
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Valda

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 27 November 05 21:35 GMT (UK) »
Where is Mary and her family on the 1871 census?

Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline 1000xlch

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Re: Query on Civil Registration
« Reply #17 on: Monday 28 November 05 22:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda

Not certain but I posted under staffs census and had a few replies.  Found John Payne Powell and a possible brother in Kingswinford area which is I suppose in south Dudley reg district for purposes of the census.

Thanks

John Rowley
DUNN - Cambuslang, LKS
FORSYTH - Shotts, LKS
FRAME - Hamilton, LKS
HODGSON - Hamsterley, DUR
HUMPHREY - Easingwold, NRY
HUNT - Frimley, Surrey
MCKECHNIE - Argyll - Shotts
NETHERCLIFF(T)/ DRAYCOTT Sandhurst, BKS
PEPPERCORN - Lolworth, Cambs
PRATT - Thirsk, NYK
REDSHAW - Hamsterley, DUR
REYNOLDS - Fritton,Stratton,NFK
ROWLEY - STS to DUR
TALLACK - St Agnes Padstow,CON
WALMSLEY - NRY,Brum
WILSON - Hamsterley, Co Durham
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk