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[grendlsmother]

Jap - re: your first post, the only one I couldn't get was the Sanquhar, which is great, as Jane is my main interest (my great-grandmother).   1881 and 1891 censuses give her birthplace at New Monkland and Coatbridge; 1901 says Sanquhar.   

She has led me a merry dance, especially with such an ordinary name.   Her death cert. gives her parents as ......Kerr and ......Kerr m/s unknown.   Isabella's death cert. does names her parent as James Brown and Mary Kerr but her marriage cert. gives them as James Brown and what looks like Mary Cowan - this could possibly be Goodwin or Goodman.

I have often suspected that the reason that I have had such trouble finding Jane is that she started life with another name, either as illegitimate or because her mother had married twice.   She names her parents as Mary Kerr & James Brown on her marriage cert, but on other documents I have (her children's birth certs. she gives her name as Jane Kerr otherwise Brown,  (and vice versa) although sometimes she says Jane Logan and Jane Thomson, but always the same husband and wedding date/place.

James, Jane & Isabella on the '61 census are listed as son/daughters of the James Brown head of house.

I have no proof that the children born in Cambuslang are of the same family, James Brown and Mary Kerr are very ordinary names and I have found other marriages of couples with the same names, that could fit, but not as well as the Kirkconnel couple.

I really need to check all this out a lot more - will keep all you helpful people advised.

[JAP]

Hi yet again grendlsmother,

Yes, I had read your other thread and thus appreciated the difficulties you were having with your Jane 

That's what made me look at the Dumfries 1851 census hoping I might find some clues - though I certainly did not expect to find such a complex household 

I understand that your main interest is your Jane - but often snippets of information found in records of siblings and others turn out to be just what is needed to break through a brick wall.

It looks as though there is probably much information on ScotlandsPeople which might help - though at this time of year one tends to be polishing up one's credit card for other purposes 

It would be good to have the entry (or entries) in the 1871 census - if only to prove whether or not the Cambuslang couple are the same as the New Cumnock couple.  And, if Mary (KERR) BROWN was still alive, it would give her age and birthplace.

Incidentally, a free search on SP finds only one death of a Mary BROWN, other name GOODWIN, between 1855 and 1900.  Refining the search parameters shows that this Mary died in Kirkconnel in 1859.

Assuming this is James BROWN's wife Mary (from the 1851 Kirkconnel census) this means that James would have been free to marry Mary KERR in 1860.

Do you have the marriage certificate of James BROWN and Mary KERR?  It might well throw some light on Mary KERR's past history (parents' names, any previous marriages ...) which might help in tracing your Jane's antecedents.

All the best,

JAP

[carolineasb]

Hi Grendlsmother

Could the place be Sanquhar?  It is just down the road from New Cumnock which I see is also mentioned

Rgds

Caroline

[carolineasb]

Sorry realise that's already been spotted
Caroline

[grendlsmother]

Well, I'm getting a little further forward with this, but uncovering more mysteries than I'm solving.   I did get James & Mary's marriage cert. last night, turns out that the Mary Cowan listed as Mother by Isabella on her marriage cert. is actually James's mother, so therefore her grandmother.
Mary Kerr's parents were listed as William Kerr and what looked like Isabella Latchie.   A search on IGI gave William Kerr and Isabella Lockhart having a daughter Mary in Durisdeer in 1828.   Mary says she is 30 in 1860 which, for me is near enough.   William and Isabella had a large number of children, all in Durisdeer except the youngest, who was born in Sanquhar.

A search on the 1871 census revealed, I think, James Jnr. and Isabella still in New Cumnock.   (No trace of Jane who I suspect was in service by then, no trace of their parents either despite searching Ayrshire & Dumfries).   

James Jnr. and Isabella were staying with two Rae families who lived almost next door to each other (came up on the same page) and are listed as niece and nephew.   James's age is a bit out (18 - should be 24) but Isabella's is right.   Search marriages for the Rae family and found one married to a Janet Currie (Kerr??)  born Durisdeer.     One of the younger children born to William Kerr and Isabella Lockhart had Rae as a middle name.

However, still no trace of births for either Jane or Isabella Brown, daughters of Mary Kerr (or maybe step-daughters).  Have tried Currie.   No trace on IGI of any children to James Brown and Mary Goodwin(man).

Going squint-eyed now and running out of credits.  Shall probably give it a rest now until after Christmas.    To be continued........


Seasons Greetings to all and thanks for all help/suggestions. 

[JAP]

Hi grendlsmother,

Interesting!  One thing - did you check the 1871 for the family who had children in Cambuslang just in case it is the same couple?  And a comment - I guess it's not surprising if James BROWN and his (older) wife Mary GOODWIN later SCOTT didn't have children as Mary would have been about 38 when they married (even assuming that this Mary's age of 55 in 1851 was truthful which it might well not have been).

The family you mention as possibly Mary (KERR) BROWN's parents are in the Dumfries 1851 census on the website I quoted earlier:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/historicalindexes/census.aspx

Interestingly, in the light of her 1860 marriage age, Mary's age is already lowered a bit!

At Matthewsfolly, Sanquhar, Dumfries, household 3/4
KERR William, Head, Mar, 50, Agricultural labourer, b Durisdeer
Do Isabella, Wife, Mar, 46, b Moffat
Do Jean, Daughter, Unm, 23, b Wamphray
Do Mary, Daughter, Unm, 20, b Durisdeer
Do John, Son, Unm, 16, Rail labourer, b Durisdeer
Do James, Son, 14, Agricultural labourer, b Penpont
Do William, Grandson, 3, b Sanquhar
WILSON Unnamed, Granddaughter, 1 month, b Sanquhar

If you would like us to put our thinking caps (no longer Santa caps!) on again after Xmas (though hopefully you'll have it all sorted by then), do post the full details of what you've found on certs and censuses.

Merry Xmas,

JAP

[grendlsmother]

The story so far - have searched  IGI batches for  New Cumnock; Sanquhar and Kirkconnel by Sanquhar keying in just the first names (Jane and Isabella) with the relevant dates and come up with nothing that seems to fit.

1871 Census - New Cumnock
Craig Bank, Peseweep Row
Robert Rae   Head   44   Coal miner   Dumfries Sanquhar
Janet      Wife   40   Wife      Do Durisdeer
James      Son   19   Coal miner   Ayrshire Whiteletts
Adam      Son   15   do   do   Do Muirkirk
William A.   Son   10   Scholar      Do Cumnock
Grace      Dau     8   Scholar      Do   Do
Andrew R   Son     1         Do   Do
James Brown   Nephew   18   Coal miner   Do   Auchinleck
(Robert Rae married Janet Currie in Dalmellington in 1851 - IGI)

Two doors away:
James Rae Junr   Head   45   Coal miner   Dumfries Sanquhar
Jane      Wife   45   Wife      Ayrshire Dalmellington
William      Son   14   Coal miner   Do         Cumnock
Grace Rae   Dau     8   Scholar      Do   Do
Isabella Brown Niece   14         Do   Auchinleck
(James Rae married Jean Gemmel in Dalmellington in 1853 - IGI)

Between this pair are a family of Wilsons (Kerrs had a Wilson not named grand-daugher on the 1851 census) but cannot trace them back.

However, this may not be the right Isabella and James.   There are births of a James Brown and Isabella Brown to Andrew Brown and Isabella Rae in Auchinleck on 4 May 1857 - they appear to be twins.  No other children to this couple.   My James and Isabella’s births are given as Kirkconnel and New Cumnock.   Isabella Rae married Andrew Brown in Dalmellington in 1850.   The niece and nephew in the census are not necessarily brother and sister - James the twin may have died.

With regard to the James Brown and Mary Kerr having children in Cambuslang , there are three pages of Browns there on SP, but none seem to fit - the only James of the right age was the wrong one.   The couple having children there were younger than my pair.  And no trace of Jane or Isabella.

Possible red herrings:
There is a birth of a Jane Howat, Old Cumnock 1855 to James Howat and Jane Cowan.  On the 1881 census there is a Jane Howatson, niece,  whose birth and parents I have never been able to trace, staying with Jane (Kerr Brown) in Coylton.    Cowan was the surname of James Brown’s mother.   There is also an Andrew Brown (see married to Isabella Rae above) born 1827 in Auchinleck to a John Brown and Agnes Howatson.

I am also beginning to think the Currie - Kerr connection may be wrong as there are several births of Janet Curries in Durisdeer which would fit the one in the 1971 census.   One of them is a Janet Kerr Currie - so perhaps there is some sort of connection.

Going back to the 1851 Dumf.census  - Daniel Atkin aged 1 born Tarbolton - I have traced a marriage of a Daniel Atkin and Janet Currie (that name again) in Tarbolton  in 1837 IGI and two children born prior to Daniel in Coylton.    James Brown’s step-daughter, Rachel Scott, may have married a Martin Thomson - marriage of a couple of this name noted in New Monkland 1866 (4 children).   Thomson is a name Jane Brown sometimes uses and also gives birthplace of New Monkland.   However, this couple do not have daughters Jane and Isabella  on IGI.   Tried searching for Jane Scott or Isabella Scott with nothing but did come up with a birth of a James Brown to James Brown and Rachel Scott in Cumnock in 1848 (Whoops!).

I have run out of credit so am having to rely on IGI for initial investigation, but this is really getting so tangled any advice would be appreciated.