Dwyer what part of Ireland is it from?

[pettsy]

Hi I have sent you a pm.

I am sure my grandfather would have known where his grandparents were from. I know he said his mother was Irish, but that was because her parents were.
I can find no record of them in this country,  but I will continue looking.

Pettsy

[heywood]

Hi Pettsy,
As you have Caroline's certificates- the best thing is to go for Thomas if you can find him to at least match up and confirm and get addresses. I hope you try the death details I sent you - that might indicate who Jane was living with.
I think I have said this before either here- or in a pm but if you feel they were Catholic - then try Catholic church records for the area. A lot are now deposited with local centres.
As for the 'Irish' connection- they may have arrived as young children and so consequently the origins are a bit blurred.
Even now people can be known as 'Irish' through parentage or religion. It can be confusing. There's a lot to do but don't give up.
Best wishes
Heywood

[pettsy]

Hi Heywood,
yes I am going to order Jane's death certificate (the death in Chelsea)
I am hoping her daughter Caroline Swift would have been present at death, if not one of the Swifts which would comfirm it is her, it may be her husband Thomas, or son Thomas.
I am going on the 17th Jan. I will let you know what I find 
I am also going to order Thomas (son) birth certificate.
And yet again search further for the marriage of Jane and Thomas 

My grandfather was the youngest child, born in 1907, so if it is his grandmother she died when he was very young.
And Caroline died in 1937, two years before my mother was born, so she never got to meet her. Caroline also remarried and became a Reddey, after Richard William Swift died in 1928.

Hopefully if they did arrive as young children then I will eventually find a marriage certificate for them here, I will not give up 
I want to find out who they were, especially for my mother.

Thanks again for your help and advice.

Pettsy 

[heywood]

Pettsy -
this is one you might want to put on the back burner for a while and come back to when you have more information.
1851: Ann Street Plumstead,Kent
William Mc Manus Head 33 yrs Plasterer East Indies British Subject
Caroline wife 32 yrs Family Laundress Ireland
Mary Ann      10 yrs scholar Chelsea
Caroline           8 yrs     scholar Chelsea
Jane     5 yrs          Scholar  Chelsea
Alfred George son 2 yrs born Chelsea
Ref: HO 107/ 1590    folio 278  pg 24
This Jane is the right age and of course there's the Caroline connection. However, your Jane not being able to write does conflict with 'scholar'.
As usual I can't find them again except that in 1871 (I think) Alfred seems to be a prisoner in Portland, Dorset. (Sorry!)
Everyone else seems to disappear.
Yours
Kath

[pettsy]

Hi Heywood, that is very interesting, and even more confusing 
I agree with you on the name Caroline.
I just wish I could find their marriage certificate at least.
Both sides of the family ended up in Chelsea at that time, and the names and approx ages match.

I will do as I said order the certificate's and go from there.
I wish I could get there sooner now.

That is two of my ancestors I have found in prison now 

Thanks Heywood.

Pettsy

[JAP]

Hello Pettsy,

Re your PM, I am thoroughly puzzled as to why a section of my post was removed!  Particularly given that similar postings are a commonplace and remain on this and other threads.  But 'them's the breaks' and I have no intention of taking part in any copyright wars 

Part of the information I posted was obtained from:
http://www.familysearch.org
where you too can see it.
I did not 'cut and paste' but posted the information in my own words.

Go to FamilySearch, then click on Census in the left hand menu.  Select 1881 British Census.  Enter Jane DWYER in the first name, last name boxes, then Thomas DWYER in the Head of Household boxes.  Only two entries come up - one of them is in Middlesex and that is the relevant one.

I commented that the family looked likely but that a big problem was the absence of Caroline.  I commented that hoh Thomas was a Hawker and compared this with the occupation of 38yo Thomas b Chelsea in the 1901 census (costermonger with 'coster' scored through and 'hawker' inserted).

I also posted information about the possible whereabouts of 17yo Kate DWYER from the 1881 census in the 1871 census.  In this part of my post, I merely quoted the reference on the image (RG10/597) as we have been specifically advised to do.  The family was in Southwark St Saviour, this Kate was a 'niece' aged 8, her birthplace was somewhere (which I could not decipher) in Surrey, and I could not decipher the surname of her aunt and uncle.  Uncle James (43) was born in Scotland, and Aunt Kate (35) was born in Ireland.

Perhaps the problem was that I did not specifically state that the Crown asserts copyright over census information.  I do so now by repeating the words which are at the bottom of the page on each thread, namely:
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

I will PM this message to you in case I've somehow "blotted my copybook" again.

Regards,

JAP
PS: My Gran used to say that her late father-in-law was a 'tall black Irishman' from Cork.  When I started on genealogy, I found from his employment records in the police force in Victoria Australia and from certificates that he was 5'7" and born in London ca 1825.  His wife (they were cousins I've been told; married in Victoria in 1852) was also born in London ca 1832.  I am hoping that, when the 1841 census becomes available, I might find them with their parents.  If I do, it will be interesting to see whether their parents were born in England or in Ireland   


 

[pettsy]

Hi Jap,
Thank you for explaining to me what was deleted.

I have looked at that census of Jane and Thomas, time and time again, but always put it on the back burner, as 1) They were not born in Ireland 2) Caroline is not there.

I cannot seem to find Caroline anywhere 

Kate Dwyer (niece) was staying in Walworth, Surrey ( now South East London)

Once I order the two Certificates, I may find some more clues  I hope so.
I will look for a marriage again, wheather it be Ireland or England. 

Thanks

ps I was looking for a "Little Irish Lady" and you were looking for a "Tall black Irish man"  How things get exaggerated over the years eh!!

Pettsy

[JAP]

Hi Pettsy,

Exaggerated over the years and also at the time!!

Ggpa Dennis/Denis SULLIVAN, the "tall Black Irishman", portrayed himself as a Detective of Police on Gpa's 1855 birth cert - not quite true as he'd been sacked (not surprisingly given his record) from the Water Police (let go due to a reduction in numbers is how the Police Archives diplomatically put it when I enquired!).

Let's hope the certificates do provide some clues.

JAP
PS: I even nostalgically thought, when I rang the Bells of Shandon in Cork, of Ggpa hearing them many years ago.  What rubbish!!

[Christopher]

Hei JAP,

Genealogy is so much easier when searching for "a tall black Irishman". It means there is no need to waste time if you spot a red headed Scotsman, in a kilt, playing the bagpipes. Englishmen called Brown and Welshmen called Jones are easier to spot if you know their hat size, shirt collar size and size of their shoes.

Pettsy,

I am not terribly experienced in searching for "Little Irish Ladies" 
I prefer searching for the traditional dark haired attractive Irish Colleens. 
Seriously though, I have just been reading through the messages posted here Pettsy. The thought has just struck me that Chelsea may provide a little clue.
I feel Irish immigrants to the City may have drifted to the same areas where people from their home county had settled. They would have felt less homesick when they heard a familiar accent. Pettsy, I see you are in London. If there are no other means of confirming my thoughts a couple of visits to Irish clubs in London may throw some light on the subject. At least you will have a good nights crack.

All the Best, Chris