Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige

[Forfarian]

Cousin Wattie married Jessie Grey. He didn't marry anybody else. 

You are wrong.

Walter Wilson, retired cabinetmaker, married to Isabella Gray, aged 64, died at Silverbuthall, parish of Wilton, Roxburghshire, on 9 May 1862 and his death was registered by Jessie Hobkirk, daughter.

The 1861 census lists at Silverbuthall House, Wilton, Walter Wilson, retired cabinetmaker, 62, born Hawick and his wife Isabella Wilson, aged 36. The 1851 lists him as a widower in Hawick, and he married Isabella Gray in 1856.

The FamilySearch index for that baptism in 1823 lists the child's name as Walter Bell or Wilson, which is a crystal clear indicator that he was illegitimate.

I also note that in spite of your challenge to Brett to produce a clearly non-existent marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Wilhelmina Bell, there is no listing on Scotland's People of a marriage of Walter Wilson to Jessie or Janet Grey. Can you produce evidence of that marriage?

In my opinion the available records do support Brett's claim that he is a descendant of Walter Wilson (1798-1862) through an illegitimate son by Wilhelmina Bell.

[majm]

Well found,  excellent,  that makes good sense to me,  here in Australia.  I am not a descendant,  I have no knowledge of Brett or anyone else who has posted on this thread.

Thanks to Forfarian for that excellent effort.  My elderly rellies will be very impressed, -  retired clergy, archivist, and senior NSW BDM officers,  all read the threads but wont join up .... instead they phone me and prompt me to post ....     I was borm 1947 ... they are a generation older...

JM

[Forfarian]

Well found,  excellent,  that makes good sense to me,  here in Australia.  I am not a descendant,  I have no knowledge of Brett or anyone else who has posted on this thread.

I am not related either - know nothing of Brett or of E M or their families - but facts are chiels that winna ding, and you have to take all the evidence into consideration. I await E M's response with great interest.

[E.M. Wilson]

Thank you for your input Forfarian.  I was wrong that Walter did not remarry.  He did and you found the document. Great detective work! This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history. This is probably due to the wives dying after childbirth.  There are also several first cousin marriages with children.

Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree.  A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree.  We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).

Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson.  I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say. Otherwise, if there is no identity match Brett's Gt. Grandfather born 1823 belongs to John Wilson and M. Brydone and Brett is part of their Wilson family not mine.   

[majm]

Thank you for your input Forfarian.  I was wrong that Walter did not remarry.  He did and you found the document. Great detective work! This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history. This is probably due to the wives dying after childbirth.  There are also several first cousin marriages with children.

Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree.  A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree.  We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).

Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson.  I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say. Otherwise, if there is no identity match Brett's Gt. Grandfather born 1823 belongs to John Wilson and M. Brydone and Brett is part of their Wilson family not mine.   

I am quite sure that there's many unbiased third party RChatters with many years of experience ,  some with formal tertiary qualifications who have been following this thread.

ADD ... see images at Replies #14, and thereabouts... 

JM

[E.M. Wilson]

Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time.  Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick.  The bible listing shows "W.W." as the father which is not very descriptive.

WILSON
WALTER
ISABEL RICHARDSON/FR1365 (FR1365)
25/06/1821
789/
60 4
Hawick

I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.

Refer to Reply #12, the DNA matches Brett claims to have - who matches who? I'm listening intently.

See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.

20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,

yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.

We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.

Barbara

Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.

"  Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"

20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.

Barbara

Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...

Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."

Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.

For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3

Brett further writes:

Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship???

At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.

And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned Barbara; And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...

Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families, which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk..

HERE IT IS ABOVE- It's a different Walter Wilson.  It's the one married to Isabella Richardson.


Extract from Walter's Diary here:

"Left Selkirk, Scotland (Not Hawick), 22nd May 1852. 29 years of age previous 3rd March. With the intention of emigrating to Australia. Arrived in London by way of Leith and Hull 25th May. Sailed from The East India Docks, Blackwall London on Sabbath morning 27th June, 10 o’clock am, per ship Diadem 714 Tons reg. And 1100 tons burden. Capt. Gillis, Commander, native of Greenock, N.B. Anchored off Gravesend same date, making preparation for voyage up to 30th June."

AND.. He arrives in Melbourne Australia...

"Entering the bay in safety, we signalled for a pilot, and anchored abreast of Melbourne at 3 o’clock afternoon 31st October 1852 – forming a protracted passage of 126 days."

[majm]

Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time.  Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick.  The bible listing shows "W.W." as the father which is not very descriptive.

WILSON
WALTER
ISABEL RICHARDSON/FR1365 (FR1365)
25/06/1821
789/
60 4
Hawick

I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.

Refer to Reply #12, the DNA matches Brett claims to have - who matches who? I'm listening intently.

See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.

20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,

yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.

We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.

Barbara

Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.

"  Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"

20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.

Barbara

Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...

Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."

Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.

For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3

May I just note that this post has been modified, by adding many paragraphs.  I first read it at several minutes past two o'clock, (1405 hours, NSW daylight savings time) .   The new additions commence with the words : 

See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of .......


ADD,  I confirm the changes were made after I read the post, and then attended to some domestic duties and then returned to RChat.  The OP was not online at that time, and it was about 2:45 pm (1445 hours NSW daylight savings time) ie 11 hours ahead of GMT.

JM 

[E.M. Wilson]

See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.

20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,

yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.

We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.

Barbara

Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.

"  Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"

20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.

Barbara

Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...

Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."

Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.

For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3

[E.M. Wilson]

So from what I can gather, Walter Snr. and Wilhemina Bell had Walter Wilson in April 1823. Born on the 5th and christened/baptised on the 6th of April in Cumberland. (See transcript of the extract further down).

Walter Snr as mentioned in another post, was from Hawick, or was living there in July 1852 as Walter Jnr, mentions writing a letter to him then and to his mother Wilhemina Bell in Penrith.

Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship???

At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.

And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned Barbara; And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...

Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families, which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk..

I will chase up information on Walter Wilson Senior to see if we can in deed confirm that he was a baker by trade from the diaries etc.