Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige

[Forfarian]

Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree.  A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree.  We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).

Come off it.

You are questioning the validity of Brett's claim because he cannot produce a marriage certificate, yet you cannot produce the corresponding proof of a marriage between Walter Wilson and Janet or Jessie Gray. The only marriage that can be proved is the one to Isabella Gray, but before you were presented with that proof you said that he was only married once, to Janet or Jessie Gray.

You are relying on a tree as 'proof' that you are right and Brett is wrong, but you refuse to accept the evidence from his family bible that his Walter Wilson had a sister Jessie who married Mr Hobkirk.

A family bible is primary evidence, because it is written at the time of an event by the people involved. A tree is secondary evidence because it was drawn up later.

Your tree is clearly inaccurate because it does not mention Isabella Gray. Therefore it cannot be relied upon to be 100% correct in every respect. Who drew it up? A prudish Victorian who would not want to include a bastard line?

What was the purpose of the tree? Was it to set out a full family, or was it to show a particular line of descent only? If the former, why does it not include Jessie's husband's given name? If the latter, then the omission of other children of the parties involved is irrelevant.

You initially set great store by the 'x' alongside Jessie's name, which you said proved that Walter Wilson's line had ended with Jessie. Yet you later admitted that this 'x' was not part of the original tree, so it proves nothing.

The primary evidence clearly shows that Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, had an illegitimate son by Wilhelmina Bell in 1823. There were of course two Walter Wilsons, both cabinetmakers, in Hawick in the early 1820s, father 1770-1847 and and son 1798-1862. Was there a third one?

The only way that it could possibly be proved that your Walter Wilson is not the one who may or may not have actually married Janet or Jessie Grey is a DNA test. Brett has undergone such a test and suggested that you get your male cousin tested. That seems to me to be the only way to proceed.

Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson.  I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say.

Allow me to point out that I am a disinterested party. I am not related to any of the people under discussion, and frankly it matters nothing to me whether or not you and Brett are related, or whether either or both of you are related to some famous person or other. I am only interested in solving this intriguing puzzle in a civilised manner.

Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?

Happy to oblige. In my opinion the primary evidence shows that Brett is related to you through a bastard connection.

[majm]

EM

I support Forfarian's post.  In my view,  you need to consider making a public apology to Brett,  and to RootsChat.

Like Forfarian and many many others here,  we are disinterested, thus we strive to be fully informed,  educated, without bias, and able to share information in a civilised polite manner.

JM

[Forfarian]

Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time.  Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick.

Walter Wilson married Isabella Richardson in 1821. They had quite a large family: Jane 1822; Walter 1824; Margaret 1827; Isabella 1829; James Donaldson 1831; John 1833; Elizabeth 1836 (from the Scotland's People index).

In the 1841 census there is a Wilson family in Hawick consisting of Walter, 49, baker; Isabella, 40; Jane, 15; Walter, 14; Margaret, 13; Isabella, 12; James, 9; John, 7; Elizabeth; 5; Agnes, 3; Jessey, 1. (From the transcription at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl). Therefore Isabella Richardson's husband was not a cabinetmaker, therefore he is not the father of Wilhelmina Bell's son.

Also Walter Wilson, baker in Hawick, died on 10 September 1849, and his will was confirmed on 24 July 1851, so he cannot possibly be the father that Walter Wilson on his way to Australia wrote to in 1852.

I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.

Why ask them to 'sort it out' when all the original records are in Scotland, and most of them can be readily accessed online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk? In fact, given that Walter Wilson's 1862 death certificate that I found there was news to you, have you ever actually looked at Scotland's People at all?

The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.

In the 1851 census the only Walter Wilson in Selkirk was a 28-year-old master baker, born in England. He fits exactly with Wilhelmina Bell's son who in the following year emigrated to Australia. In the 1841 there are no Walter Wilsons at all listed in Selkirk. This is from FreeCEN and from the indexes at Scotland's People and FamilySearch. Therefore your source above appears to be giving you wrong information.

Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell.

According to whom? In any case, it's easy to disprove. Jessie Wilson, widow of George Hobkirk, died in Hawick in 1913, parents Walter Wilson, master cabinetmaker, and Jessie Gray.

That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.

That coin contains nothing that could have a bearing on the legitimacy or otherwise of Jessie Wilson or Hobkirk. And in any case how would her legitimacy or otherwise have any bearing on the parentage of Wilhelmina Bell's son? It's a complete red herring.

Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.

Wrong again. The Walter Wilson who married Isabella Gray did not leave, and if we are to believe your repeated assertions he fathered only one child, Janet or Jessie, born 1828 died 1913.

And by the way, the names Janet and Jessie are used interchangeably in Scotland, She was baptised Janet but known as Jessie/Jessey/Jessy for the rest of her life. Which reminds me that if you had bothered to look at the original baptism record on Scotland's People you would have had evidence to prove or disprove whether or not Walter Wilson and Janet or Jessie Grey or Gray were married.

[Forfarian]

So from what I can gather, Walter Snr. and Wilhemina Bell had Walter Wilson in April 1823. Born on the 5th and christened/baptised on the 6th of April in Cumberland. (See transcript of the extract further down).

Correct.

Walter Snr as mentioned in another post, was from Hawick, or was living there in July 1852 as Walter Jnr, mentions writing a letter to him then and to his mother Wilhemina Bell in Penrith.

Also correct.

Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children.

Correct again.

At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.

A reasonable inference, but I don't see any evidence that anyone claimed he did.

And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned

Correct again. My, my, aren't we doing well!

And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...

But now you are completely wrong. Walter Wilson and Isabella Richardson were married in 1821. The marriage record is at Scotland's People. Jane was baptised in Hawick on 11 October 1822. She is listed as aged 15 in the 1841 census because in that year the ages of people over 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years.

Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families

Correct again.

which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk.

Where did that come from? Neither in the 1841 nor in the 1851 census is there any household in Selkirk including both a Walter Wilson and anyone by the name of Hume. (FreeCEN transcription but the SP index lists only the one Walter Wilson in Selkirk).

In any case, even if he was living with some other family, he would have been 18 on the day of the 1841, and many young men would have left home by that age to follow an apprenticeship.

I will chase up information on Walter Wilson Senior to see if we can in deed confirm that he was a baker by trade from the diaries etc.

Since I have proved conclusively that that Walter Wilson Sr was dead before Walter Wilson Jr wrote to his father in September 1852, you would be wasting your time. And you don't need to look further than the original of the 1841 census on Scotland's People to show that he was a baker.

You spent all this time and money researching and you didn't hire a professional geneologist before you claimed to be related to James Wilson, Economist?

That is a bit rich.

You didn't mention Scotland's People, and you seemed to think it was a great feat of achievement on my part to find the 1862 death certificate of Walter Wilson. You have not looked at any of the primary sources that would be a professional genealogist's first port of call in researching a client's connections to anyone famous or otherwise. Yet you accuse Brett of not having employed a professional, when you have clearly not done so either. 

You even proclaim it as if it were something to be proud of!

No, I have not read any of it. I have done my own research through family books in private circulation, private family trees, and family members.

[Forfarian]

This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history.

Levirate marriages? Forced marriage of a woman to her sister's childless widower? Really?

First, you seem to be making the assumption that Isabella Gray was the sister of Janet or Jessie Grey. You have not a shred of evidence to back up that assumption.

Isabella Gray's parents, according to her marriage certificate, were James Gray and Margaret Rutherford. They were married in 1810 and had six children, not, apparently, including a Janet or Jessie.

Second, although it wasn't actually illegal to marry a deceased wife's sister in Scotland (it was definitely illegal in England and Wales), it was generally frowned on and discouraged by the Church of Scotland and later by the Free churches. See https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1889/apr/03/marriage-with-a-deceased-wifes-sister for a summary of the matter.

So while it is, just, possible that James Gray and Margaret Rutherford had a daughter Janet or Jessie whose baptism record has not survived, and who was old enough to marry and produce Janet or Jessie Wilson in 1828, it's even less likely that Isabella was forced into marriage at least 15 years after the death of Janet or Jessie.

[Forfarian]

Pigot's Directory for 1825-1826 lists two Walter Wilsons in business in Hawick. One a baker and the other a cabinetmaker. It  would be reasonable to assume that the one cabinetmaker's business was that of the father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that he baker is the one married to Isabella Richardson. Pity that seems to be the earliest such directory available.

[Forfarian]

Brett, there are quite a few things that puzzle me about what has been said in this thread.

First, Handless Watt must have been 40 when he married in 1752, and 61 when his youngest recorded child, Katharine, was born in 1773. Are you sure that there isn't a generation missing?

Also, there is a gap in the Scotland's People baptisms from the marriage in 1752 until the first baptism, in 1759. Are there missing children?

StintonLomas says that there was at least one, Elizabeth or Betty, born 1753 and married to George Turnbull, and that they had 10 children. I can find 12 of the 10 children, but not the marriage. What is the evidence for this Betty Wilson being the daughter of Handless Wat?

(Haunless Wat's Grandson) had at least 3 children with 3 different women that I can find so far. The 3rd was around 1840 another male child who emigrated to New Zealand.

What was the name of this child and who was his mother?

You have posted two extracts from your family bible, so closely cropped that some of the information is cut off. Can you re-scan and post the whole page so that we can see what else it says, please?

There are references to Walter Wilson b 1823 writing to his mother, but you don't seem to have said that on this thread. Where did that come from?

There have also been mentions of six or seven more children born to Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. You didn't post that on this thread. Where did that come from? Is there some confusion with the 6 children Wilhelmina Bell had by her husband Robert Elliot?

[E.M. Wilson]

This is one of several posts since I'm not sure how much text I can post at a time.
I didn't write this from the previous post, all of  this was written by Brett on https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3 and I just pasted it in there for your review.

Brett states:
“Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship???  “

Please note it is Walter Wilson Elliot.

Barbara at familyhistory.uk writes:
“The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51. “

Walter Wilson Jnr (Brett's Gt. Grandfather who left from Selkirk to Melbourne was the illegitimate child of Wilhelmina Bell and Walter Wilson, Baker in Ha (ick not Walter Wilson, Cabinetmaker) who was married to Isabella Richardson).  Walter Wilson, Baker in Hawick is not a member of my Wilson family.

No Brett's Walter Wilson had a Sister, Jessie Wilson but it was not the Jessie Wilson married to Hobkirk. Brett writes: "  Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr.(Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather), Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)" So, this is not Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson), this is Jessie Wilson, Daughter of the Baker named Walter Wilson in Hawick.

Forfarian, I think you need to see things from my perspective for a moment.  I am a family member. I have nothing to prove.  Brett has boasted all over the internet that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and I would like to know how he makes that claim.  We are in touch with the extended members of the family and know their whereabouts.  There have been books written documenting the family history, there is the family tree.  The tree is published in one of the books by a real publishing company.  It's not some piece of paper I had lying around. The tree was hand drawn by Lucy Ann Wilson in 1890, a prudish Victorian (1853-1944 and Granddaughter of William Wilson).  The book that contains the family tree sans Brett's bastard line is The Wilson Story by Cynthia Anne Ormond  Wilson(1913). She is Sir James Glenny Wilson's Granddaughter in New Zealand. Her father was Walter Wilson born 17 September 1796, Hawick.

None of those books mention a baker or a bastard line in Australia.  I only started researching my family since this imposter decided to advertise his pedigree which is false.  He did not say all over the internet that he was the bastard cousin of James Wilson, Economist five times removed he said he was the legitimate cousin.  He is not even an illegitimate cousin five times removed.  His bastard connection is to that of Walter Wilson, Snr. Baker in Hawick who is not a member of my family.  First of all, his Gt. Grandfather, Walter Wilson, Jnr., Baker in Hawick was not a member of my family.  Secondly, as you pointed out he died before being able to have written correspondence.  Finally, I'm not the one bragging about my ancestors, Brett is and their not even his ancestors.  He has attached himself to my family, specifically James Wilson, Economist and he is of no relation at all. The onus is on Brett to prove who he is and how he is related...and that is not possible. I am the one who is owed an apology.

[E.M. Wilson]

Jessie Wilson (1828-1913, Hawick) married George Hobkirk, Baker and Corn Merchant (1816-1877, Slitrig Villa). They were married 11 Jan 1849, Hawick.
It is evident that the Jessie Wilson Brett mentions and has a coin bearing the name is from Walter Wilson Snr, Baker in Hawick and Wilhelmina Bell or Robert Elliot.  Who knows what went on there.

Like you, I am not impressed to be the Niece of James Wilson, Economist but somehow Brett wants to announce that he is his legitimate fifth cousin and has advertised this fiction worldwide.   I just don't like being lied to and I strongly believe that Brett has lied to me and the world. This is an interesting puzzle but I believe now that Brett is surely barking up the wrong tree, pun intended and his Australian Great Grandfather was the son of Walter Wilson Snr., Baker, in Hawick and not part of my family. Again, Brett is the one who needs to rescind his false claims and make a public apology.

Forfarian, you wrote:

“In the 1841 census there is a Wilson family in Hawick consisting of Walter, 49, baker; Isabella, 40; Jane, 15; Walter, 14; Margaret, 13; Isabella, 12; James, 9; John, 7; Elizabeth; 5; Agnes, 3; Jessey, 1. (From the transcription at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl). Therefore Isabella Richardson's husband was not a cabinetmaker, therefore he is not the father of Wilhelmina Bell's son. “

Also Walter Wilson, baker in Hawick, died on 10 September 1849, and his will was confirmed on 24 July 1851, so he cannot possibly be the father that Walter Wilson on his way to Australia wrote to in 1852. 

What proof do you have that Wilhelmine Bell's son's father was a Cabinet maker? Walter Wilson, the Baker in Hawick married to Isabella Richardson had an illegitimate child with Wilhelmine Bell.  Brett's  Gt. Grandfather is not the Cabinet maker's son, he's the Baker's son or he's somebody else's son.  He is not part of my family.

Yes, I have looked at Scotland's People.  If you take another look at my family tree snapshot that I posted, I had added his death date of 1862 in red.  I have also purchased many certificates from Scotland's People and I am able to look up my own birth certificate there too.  It's a link by link thing.  I can trace all my ancestors that way.  In fact, I have been working backwards as well as forwards regarding the generations and I have come very far with the help of the Gunn Clan, the Branxholme records and other means.  As far as hiring a genealogist, again I'm not the one with anything to prove. I'm being honest about what I know and my family history.

Walter Wilson was a common name, so it begets scrutiny.

You wrote:
Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.

I was being sarcastic. Of course, he didn't leave her.

YOU ARE WRONG:
Walter Wilson born 1798 cabinetmaker High St. son of Walter Wilson senior and was known as 'Cousin Wattie'. He was the father of Mrs. Hobkirk of Slitrig Villa. He inherited his business from his father and being comfortably off left much of the running of his business to his journeyman John Rae. 'Cousin Wattie' was a