10 years and still looking !!! - HELP ? GG Grandfather Thomas BATE

[CarpeDiem]

Im at my wits end with this....

My GG Grandfather Thomas BATE married Marion Kate CHARLES in March 1874 at Altrincham he says he was 23 - his father (deceased) Thomas Bate - Iron Worker.

On the 1881 census Thomas says he was born in - Cheshire(which is then struck out) and replaced by Warrington.

I have found him in the 1871 census living with another family in Lymm as a boarder

The only birth I can find in Warrington with a Father Thomas circa 1851 is 1853 and the father is a Fustian Cutter - he was still a fustian cutter in 1861 when his wife died.

I can't find MY Thomas as a youngster on any census. 

So I can't accept the birth as my Thomas - what can I do now ??

ps... there are millions (might be exagerating a bit but it seems like it !!!) of Thomas Bate(s) and not one of them mine !!!! 

please help

[MaryA]

Welcome to Rootschat, I don't know if we can be of any help to you but I'm sure we'll try.

First of all when trying to do a look up I like the information before me and I can't be sure of finding YOUR Thomas Bate from what you've given me, as you say there are a lot of them.

Can you please give the full details from the 1881 census and the 1871 census that you have ie so that we know where they were living, what ages they gave then etc. the RG/folio/page numbers help too, do the ages match with the marriage certificate?  Who were the witnesses at the marriage.  What was Thomas occupation on the certificate?

[CarpeDiem]

1881
Stockport Road, Levenshulme   Thomas Bates   29   Head   Tanner   Cheshire Warrington
   Maria K   29   Wife      Beds Woburn
   Thomas H   6   Son      Cheshire Lymm
   Caroline A   3   Daur      Cheshire Latchford
   Albert F   1   Son      Cheshire Latchford
1871
Massey Brook Road, Lymm   Thomas Bate   18   Apprentice   Hamper Maker   Warrington, Lancashire

The above is Thomas – when they married in 1874 he gave his occupation as Hamper Maker and age as 23.

Thomas gives his father as Thomas Bate (deceased) Iron Worker

The witnesses were Thomas Rastings ?? can’t quite make it out but I have done census searches for this name or similar – cant find him either.  The other being Augusta Alice Charles – Marion’s sister.

In 1871 Thomas was an apprentice with a Hamper Maker and his family but I cant make out the name – I think it may be Starkey ?  RG10 3686


1901
Address   Name   Age   Relation   Occupation   Born
44 St James St, Gorton   William Britton   54   Head   Joiner/Carpenter   Huddersfield
   Kate Britton   51   Wife      Woburne, Surrey
   Florence Bate   19   Step Daughter   Domestic General Servant   Levenshulme, Lancs
1891
19 Claremont Street, Gorton   Miriam Kate Bate   38   Wife      Bedfordshire, Woburn
   Thomas Henry   16   Son   General Labourer   Cheshire Lymm
   Caroline Alice   13   Daur   Domestic Servant   Lancs Latchford
   Albert Frederick   11   Son   Scholar   Lancs Latchford
   Florence Priscilla   9   Daur   Scholar   Lancs Levenshulme
1881
Stockport Road, Levenshulme   Thomas Bates   29   Head   Tanner   Cheshire Warrington
   Maria K   29   Wife      Beds Woburn
   Thomas H   6   Son      Cheshire Lymm
   Caroline A   3   Daur      Cheshire Latchford
   Albert F   1   Son      Cheshire Latchford
1871
20 Mumps, Oldham   John C Hayes   38   Head   Confectioner   Lancs Oldham
   Jemma   38   Wife   Confectioner   Lancs Oldham
   Jeremiah   13   Son   Scholar   Lancs Oldham
   Alice Shawley   25   Apprentice   Confectioner   Lancs Ashton
   Mary Connell   19   Servant   Servant   Ireland Dublin
   Miriam K Charles   20   Servant   Servant   Berks Woburn



I really would appreciate any help.

Thanks

Carrol

[MaryA]

Still looking,  that change in occupation from an Apprentice Hamper maker to a tanner bothers me a bit.  Have you looked into these occupations and is there any similarities which would make the switch from one to another easy?  Nevertheless your trail seems to be correct.

I've done what you have probably already done, but what harm is two pairs of eyes on the job, and that is checked the 1871 and 1861 censuses to find a father who is a lead worker, and even the 1851 for a Thomas old enough to be his father later.  I'm sure you have seen the family with the father John, the Tanner, who interested me because of the occupation and the son was of the right age.

My last suggestion is - have you put the matter in the hands of the GRO or even the local Register Office, which is probably your best option.

Museum Street
Warrington
WA1 1JX

Tel +44 (0)1925 442762
Fax +44 (0)1925 442739

and ask them if they will do a search for you.  The GRO will do a 3 consecutive years search using the criteria you specify but if they don't have any luck then they will refund part and keep a search fee.  The local Register Offices are usually more helpful and may even do a wider search for you, I've known some to do up to 10 years even when I'd only asked for a 5 year search, and you can specify that the father should be Thomas, iron worker.

Hope you have some luck with this.

Mary

[Richard Knott]

I thought this might be worth investigating:

RG9/2795 Warrington 1861
William Woods, 26, labourer
Jane Woods, 27  b Burtonwood, Lancs
John Thomas Bate, 7, son, b St Helens
William Woods, 1, son, b Warrington

...as (John) Thomas could have been Jane's son from her previous marriage to Thomas, especially as there is a gap of c6 years between children, but I can't find the necessary marriage, other than the William Wood/Jane Bate one in Dec 1858 and a very unlikely Thomas Bate/Ann Bate in Jun 1852 in Preston. There are some possible Thomas deaths, but no way of knowing whether they are right.
There is also a Jane Bate, b Burtonwood, age 19, in 1851, so it looks more like an illegitimate birth rather than second marriage unfortunately.

[Richard Knott]

Longshot no 2:

HO107/2214/62/36   1851  Bury
Fishpool
John BATES, 34, iron turner, b Cockermouth, Cumberland
Mary B, wife, 38, b Blackburn
Thomas B, 12, son, b Blackburn
Elizabeth B, 10, b Manchester
Joseph B, 8, son, b Creece
John B, 8, b Creece
Thomas Bates, 24, brother-in-law, blacksmith, b Manchester, Cheshire

[CarpeDiem]

It's now nearly 10 years since I posted my original post on here and I am still struggling to find a birth or death for Thomas Bate.   So over 20 years on and no idea what else I can do.  . 

[josey]

You've done the right thing by bringing it to the top again for a start  - it would help though if the title was 'Thomas Bates born Warrington ca 1851' 

Lots more fresh pairs of eyes & lots more records online. Thomas Bates snr could have been a name same as his own that Thomas jnr (if illegitimate) gave to make up a lack of father. Many illegitimate men gave the same name for father when marrying.

What records have you checked & found negative since you last posted? This will save duplication of effort.

Although civil registration came in 1837, I think I read that penalties for failing to register did not come in till the mid 1870s so it is possible Thomas' birth was never registered. He would however most likely have been baptised. Have you looked recently for baptism records to try to find Thomas son of Thomas iron worker?

Josey

[lizdb]

I wouldnt rule out the one found in reply#4.

i.e Thomas was illegitimate son of Jane Bate and made up a father for his marriage cert.

Have you traced that Wood family forward to see if their John Thomas is still around at a time when you have found your Thomas elsewhere? If so, then it can be ruled out. But otherwise remains a strong possibility.