Author Topic: heraldry  (Read 2060 times)

Offline behindthefrogs

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heraldry
« on: Friday 03 March 06 16:26 GMT (UK) »
A couple of questions for the experts out there which I can't answer from my Books

What is the implication of a crest which faces the wrong way?

In this particular case a crowned golden lion emerging to the LEFT.  I must emphasise this is the crest not on the shield.

Secondly why would a shield be constructed of two half shields stuck together rather than halved or quarterd in the normal way? Both halves are blue and gold and so it consists of half a sun on a blue background and half a blue Fluer de Lis on a gold background.  I suspect this is a modern concoction rather than being genuine or are there other examples about?
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Little Nell

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Re: heraldry
« Reply #1 on: Friday 03 March 06 22:09 GMT (UK) »
Does this mean the helm is facing to the left (or dexter to be heraldically correct)?  For what name is this crest?  Does the illustration come from a stall plate?  Those in St George's Chapel at Windsor have the helms facing the altar, so they may look odd out of context.

Your second one sounds odd - but possibly a European coat of arms?  Either that or a very early attempt at marshalling the two coats of arms.

Nell

All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: heraldry
« Reply #2 on: Friday 03 March 06 22:32 GMT (UK) »
The helm faces the usual way.  The coat of arms claims to be for the Edlin family and to be documented in Riestrap's Armorial General.  The blazon when translated from French into English reads:

Quartered: 1 and 4 divided diagonally gold over black.  A crook ending in a trefoil placed diagonally and counterchanged.
2 and 3 silver, a red diagonal band between in the top a black eagle's leg and in the base a black wing turned to the left.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: heraldry
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 15 March 06 15:09 GMT (UK) »
The coat of arms made up from two halves appears to be the original way of combining the those of husband and the wife's family.  It is called "dimidiation" and was used when arms were first combined around 1300. 

It however lead to some strange results and so was replaced by "impalement" where the two complete shields were placed side by side on the one shield.  Both of these forms were temporary and non-hereditary and the husband's original shield would descend to the next generation.  The crest however would usually be taken from the higher ranking family.

Where there was no male descent on the wife's side on the
death of her father his shield would be moved to an escutcheon in the centre of her husband's.  Later generations would then quarter the two shields with the paternal arms in the first and fourth quarters.

So much genealogy hidden in one coat of arms.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk