Another death dilemma!!

[Chasing-fireflies]

yet another problem has arisen for me!! I have an Ivor Griffiths born1891 pentre on the 1901 census. I know these details are correct from the family. The only problem is that 1891 census there is another Ivor Griffiths aged 7 that none of us knew about. Here are the details
1891
25 Treharne street, Ystradyfodwg
Alfred Griffiths head 26 coal miner born pembrey carmarthenshire
Martha Griffiths wife 26 b. Haverfordwest
Ivor Griffiths son 7 b. pentre
Emily L Griffiths 2  b. Pentre

Then in 1901 the same family appears at the same address with all members present including My aunt Ethel but with the Ivor we all knew about aged 10. We know that this Ivor was born 1891 as my Aunt has his birth certificate.
I wondered if someone could look for a death for the earlier Ivor as i have tried and failed yet again. If i know when it was for sure and that he definitely existed then i could apply for the death certificate and solve one of my remaining mysteries.
All help greatfully appreciated!!!!!!
 

[casalguidi]

Hi

What date in 1891 was Ivor born?  I only ask because if he was 10 in 1901 (31 March) then he should appear in 1891 (5 Apr) .................... assuming the age in 1901 was correct .............. could it be the same Ivor in 1891 but with the wrong age written down?

Casalguidi

[Chasing-fireflies]

The second Ivor Griffiths was born on september 30th 1891. This is why i feel there must of been one that died whilst his mother was carrying him. Th first was never mentioned to the family and i cant find a death or a birth for him.
verdict?
 

[Cas (stallc)]

This is the likely marriage info from disc and freebmd

ALFRED GRIFFITHS age 24 Bachelor fathers name JOHN married MARTHA ROBERTS age 29 Spinster, fathers name  JOHN on 2/12/1888 in YSTRADYFODWG   

Marriages Dec 1888
 
GRIFFITHS  Alfred    Pontypridd  11a 640   
ROBERTS  Martha     Pontypridd  11a 640

*******************

Between both census and marriage info ages are not consistant with parents ages being all over the place.

1) There is a possibility that the first Ivor is Martha child before marriage, and is not registered as Griffiths.

2) Possibly there is no info transcribed yet

3) Possibility that he is 7mths on first census, but as you have the birth cert he would have to be born 1890, This would fit with him being the same Ivor on 1901, as he would be 10yrs no info on freebmd for this this either. 

I would check the beta index to see if there is a Griffiths / Roberts born around both dates.

Cas

[Chasing-fireflies]

Hello,
Thanks for looking into it for me. I tried under Roberts too but nothing came up. I got into a real pickle with it yesterday. The only thing i can think of doing is applying for a death certificate blindly and state the age as being 7 or 7 months and i assume it would of been registered by one of the parents. I think the area would of been Pontypridd for the registration if they were living in Ystradyfodwg.
Thanks for trying!!!!
 

[Cas (stallc)]

Have checked both local cems Treorchy and Trealaw no Ivor Roberts or Griffiths the right age or time period. 

Do you have the cert to hand? check it is 1891 not 1890 as this would fit and make him the same boy.

Cas

[Chasing-fireflies]

I got my Aunt to recheck and it says 1891 on there. The thing is he brought her up so she would know without the certificate. She only got it to add to her collection as she had all the others related to her mother Ethel(Ivors sister). Could it be 7 weeks and they had not registered him? As i know that a lot of young babies died  and there were stillborn ones too on that side of the family. In fact i think every Griffiths' female had at least 2 stillbirths each and most have had babies die before they were 2 months old. This is the only conclusion i can come too as he was never mentioned by the eldest sister who was my great grandmother. BIZARRE!!!!!
 

[Cas (stallc)]

I know the census was open to lots of error.  when they were filled in nobody thought people like us would be checking BMD etc. 
The 1901 states he is 10yr old, but if he was born Sept he would be 9yrs in March when the census was taken 

Looked for the birth ref on the beta index only one I can find is Ivor John Griffiths Cardiff reg Dec Q 1890  No reg for Ponty.

Sorry badgirl, no other advice....

Cas

[Chasing-fireflies]

Thanks anyway. Its just one of those puzzles that i think may go unsolved. I will ring Ponty office tomorrow though and see if they have a death that maybe has not been registered online yet or maybe even check that the details put on the certificate were correct as i suppose there is always room for human error.
Thanks for looking though!!!!!