Pentland - Uprichard, Gibson, Morrow. Ballyworkan.

[kiap]

Hi Red Rover (and others)
This is about all we know of the family of my ggrandfather William PENTLAND. Any chance you recognise any names?

1.  RICHARD PENTLAND married Mary Ann DAVIS at United Church of England, Ireland. It is thought that Richard and Mary lived in County Armagh, North Ireland, that one is buried in Armagh and one buried in Belfast, and that there were relatives in Tandragee, North Ireland.
Parents or grandparents or ancestors migrated from Gilmerton, a village near Swanton at the foot of the Pentland Hills, Scotland.
He and Mary Ann DAVIS lived on 6 Dec 1829 at Drumnakelly, Armagh Co., North Ireland, at the time of son William's baptism, Richard a weaver.
He and Mary Ann DAVIS lived on 11 Dec 1831 at Drumnakelly, Armagh Co., North Ireland, at the time of son Davis's baptism, Richard recorded as a weaver. In 1858 at Annagh townland, Drumcree parish, Armagh Co, North Ireland, The Griffith Valuation recorded a Richard Pentland leasing a house and small garden from Mary Totten (who leased it and others from the Duke of Manchester), annual rateable valuation of 1 pound 10 shillings.
The four children of Richard PENTLAND and Mary Ann DAVIS were as follows:
    2.   i.   WILLIAM PENTLAND. was born on 2 Jun 1829 at ?, County Armagh, Ireland, (his Marriage Certificate gives 1830, the family bible gives 1823 (or 1828?), amended to 1826 - Baptism records suggest 1829).
       ii.   CHARLOTTE PENTLAND was born circa 1830.
       iii.   SARAH PENTLAND was born in 1830 at Ireland.
    3.   iv.   DAVIS PENTLAND was baptized on 11 Dec 1831 at Church of Ireland, Drumcree, Armagh Co., North Ireland.

2   William Pentland migrated to Australia in 1852. He was followed in 1853 by Eliza EWING(S), a Presbyterian domestic servant of County Armagh born c1835, married in 1854. (Have documented 2,500 children & spouses)

3.  DAVIS PENTLAND. That this Davis is a brother of William is assumed from baptism records - father Richard, mother Mary Ann, of Drumnakelly - with the presumption that his given name reflects his mother's surname.
He was baptized on 11 Dec 1831 at Church of Ireland, Drumcree, Armagh Co., North Ireland; surname recorded as PEDLETON. He married Elizabeth KITCHEN, daughter of Robert KITCHEN, on 8 Apr 1853 at Church of Ireland, Banbridge, Tullylish, Down, Ireland. He died before 1861 when wife Elizabeth remarried.
ELIZABETH KITCHEN was born in 1834 at Mullabrack, Tullylish, Down, Ireland. She married George NEIL on 14 Jul 1861 at Seagoe, Armagh, Ireland.
The only child of Davis PENTLAND and Elizabeth KITCHEN was:
       i.   WILLIAM JOHN PENTLAND was born on 12 Sep 1854 at Drumaran, Tullylish, Down, Ireland.

[worldlywanderer]

May I first make a couple of tiny observations:

It is unusual to see recognition of the union of the episcopal churches in Ireland which survived for almost seven decades in the nineteenth century. The church, called the United Church of England and Ireland, was formed by the fifth article of the Treaty of Union 1800 then separated by the 1869 Irish Church Act and disestablished from January 1st 1871. If you are aware of the church which married Richard Pentland and Mary Ann Davis have you seen the record and does it give either a proclamation or marriage date?

You mention that parents, grandparents or ancestors migrated from Gilmerton "a village near Swanton at the foot of the Pentland Hills". Gilmerton is certainly near Swanston but I have never seen it described in that way before which makes me enquire the source?. I would agree it is highly likely that all of the Pentlands in Ireland came originally from the Pentland Hills near Edinburgh but would suggest the migration was more likely to have been as part of the plantation than in the late eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries.

May I commend your research in identifying 2500 descendants of this couple, it must have been quite a journey!

Your suggestion that Richard Pentland and Mary Ann Davis were buried as far apart as Armagh and Belfast is a new one to me, may I enquire upon what evidence it is based?

You mention a family bible which could be an invaluable source in view of the scarcity of Irish birth, baptism and marriage records. It would be very helpful to see a scan as sometimes local knowledge can enable one person to extract information from original documents in ways which are meaningless to another. I happen to be in Ireland and plan to visit relatives in Portadown shortly and would be delighted to try to discover more if that might be helpful.

My understanding is that William Pentland's marriage certificate is an Australian document which means the date taken from it may be calculated from his age and therefore may be no different to the baptism record date of 1829. If this record exists, have you seen it or can you say from which church register it was taken? I plan to visit the centre in Dublin which apparently holds all of these registers and would be happy to check it out. The date and amendment in the family bible are curious and make it even more desirable to see a scan of the original.

May I ask the source of the names of William's two sisters?

Do you know where the original register of The Church of Ireland at Drumcree is now held or do you have an image of the entry for Davis Pentland? I have seen his name before but also heard that it is David rather than Davis in the baptismal register. I am a little puzzled that he was baptised in Drumnacree while his parents lived in Seagoe. Annagh townland in is where the family appeared to be in 1858 does this suggest they moved there before Davis' birth?

Are you saying that Davis Pentland's relationship is "assumed" from baptismal records which show his surname as Pendleton and did I understand correctly that his father's and mother's forenames were shown but not his mother's maiden name? The use of the surname Pendleton could be helpful if it can be tied to the use of it in relation to other members of this family where Pentland has been used as their surname.

I understand Davis Pentland's death is, quite reasonably, based on his wife's remarriage. Dates quoted for for both marriages suggests that entries exist. Do you have or know where I might find the entries? I cannot work where to look as I understand the parish for Banbridge was Seapatrick but you mention Tullylish, a separate parish which, among others included the townland of Mullabrack which could mean the first marriage took place in Elizabeth's home parish. Has anyone seen the second marriage entry; if so was Elizabeth's name given as Kitchen, Pentland or Pendleton?

I wonder whether confusion has set in from the large number of ways in which the same area was described in Ireland? the electoral Division of Banbridge Rural containing a number of townlands which form part of the parish of Tallish and the Poor Law Union of Banbridge not to mention the barony of Iveagh Upper; confusing or what!

Following from that Elizabeth's marriage in Seagoe suggests she then lived there which may mean her first husband died there. Has anyone checked for Pendleton deaths around that period?

William emigrated in 1852, a year before his bride. Is it known whcih ships they travelled on and if not where were the years of their emigration found?

My apologies if I have added to the confusion but with accurate information there does seem to be the potential to clear up a number of conflicts surrounding this family.

[Roxanna]

To Kiap,

This is an old post I had in my records.  Have a date, but not the source.  It appears that Richard and Eliza had at least five children.  Please see the info below on George H.



"Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Pentland/Ewings   

~~~~~~~~
 
William PENTLAND b. 1830, had a brother, George H. PENTLAND. B circa 1825. both born at Portadown or Tandragee
Father Richard PENTLAND, Mother, Mary Ann DAVIS. married in the Church of England and Ireland possibly in Portadown or Tandragee..
George may have lived in Tandragee. I think his grandaughter, Anne , drowned at Newry.
Richards' Father was George E. PENTLAND.

Eliza EWINGS b. 1833. parents George EWINGS and Anne McELLEROY

Eliza and William emigrated to Australia and married in Melbourne and have extensive descendents mostly in Victoria, Australia. "

Best,
Roxanna

[Roxanna]

To Redrover

"In another site there is a marker for Ann Pentland died 1876 age 45 and George her husband who died at Ballylisk in 1873 at 64 and son W.H. who died in in action in 1916 at age 45 (also names of Whiteside & Redpath)."

from an earlier post of yours.... The George and Ann Pentland you mentioned above, from your photos... George is the son of George Thomas Pentland and Jane/Jennie Anderson, who were married in Drumgor and moved to Derrykeevan by 1828.

Their known children are
Lucy Pentland b. 1823
Elizabeth Ann Pentland, b. 1826
Jane Elizabeth Pentland, b. 1828
Thomas George Pentland, b. 1830
George A Pentland, b. abt 1832
 Margaret Pentland, b. 1835
George Pentland, b. 1840
Elizabeth Pentland, b. 1848
James Pentland

However, if we are referring to the correct family, then there are some problematic dates.  The George A Pentland in this family was born about 1832 and would have been about age 40 at death.  Hmmm. how to align the info?

Roxanna

[worldlywanderer]

I am not at all clear on how Roxanne's post of 29 April 2007 provides an answer to Kiap and Planters. If I am reading these posts properly it seems that answers are being provided by referring to other posts not original sources. It would be very helpful if someone could answer the questions in my earlier post and provide pointers to where the references were found.

I see no point in building on shaky foundations so will organise my nineteenth century research before turning fully to the eighteenth and earlier centuries. Like others before me, I will simply spend days looking at registers which have been checked previously instead of delving into the potentially interesting records in the National Library in Dublin and the almost three hundred separate source documents in PRONI which may provide new information.

Does anyone out there have any original source material or is all of this research based on old posts?

[Roxanna]

The post had come from a researcher on Ulster Ancestry.com, which I am unable to access. 

[kiap]

Hi Wordly Wanderer,
Thanks you your interest and response. Note sure if my reply will help clarify much

1.   No, we don’t have a date or location for marriage of Richard Pentland + Mary Ann Davis. Like much of what we “know” of our ancestors, the snippet of ‘United Church of England’ came from verbal comments by an ‘aunt’ (since deceased) who got it from her mother – presumably from comments by our ggrandfather William around the kitchen table. We know this is an unreliable method of data collection but thought it better to record what we think we know rather than let those snippets disappear with time

2.   Reference to ‘Gilmerton a village near Swanton at the foot of the Pentland Hills’ comes from a similar source as (1). We suspect that reference to Pentland Hills comes from someone over here looking at a map of Scotland trying to locate Gilmerton and noting that interesting geographical feature nearby. We have no idea when ‘our’ Pentlands migrated from Scotland, just the verbal advice that they did.

3.   Yes, we are developing a theory that migrants from England were like rabbits and multiplied to fill the open land. William and Eliza had 12 children, 11 survived and married and had large families as well. We have another set of ancestors who migrated a generation earlier (1837) and we have recorded 7,200 descendants in Oz but only a couple of relatives apparently still alive in UK

4.   Source as for (1). Suspect that most Australians think Armagh and Belfast are just down the road from each other

5.   Family Bible entered  the family in 1871, with records starting with William & Eliza’s marriage in 1854, so no reference to Ireland

6.   William’s  Marriage Certificate gives birth 1830, his family bible gives 1823 (or 1828?), amended to 1826 - Immigration records suggest 1830 (‘age 21’). There are other date and name amendments in the bible (which differ from some Birth Certificates) so we take it with a large grain of salt.

7.– 10.   In  2007 my sister asked Ulster Ancestry, Londonderry to research William P and Richard P+ Mary Ann Davis. The result was email lists of apparent extracts from ‘Public Records Office’ records for Pentlands from Church of Ireland records. Will try and get more info from my sister,

11.   Yes, just imagine how confused we are at this distance

12.   Don’t think so, am not sure

13.   Yes, we have William and Eliza’s passenger listings, ship name (and captain), departure dates & arrival dates. Those are the earliest official records we have of each.

14.    Agreed. If we had accurate information we would be a lot further along. At the moment we just hope someone else is researching  Richard P + Mary Ann DAVIS   

Many thanks

[Planters]

Thank you Roxanne and thanks Kiap and also to Worldlywanderer for his/her intervention; I'm much clearer now on how this information is sourced. It must be hugely difficult to research family in the British Isles from the other side of the world, I know it can be hard enough in the  UK!

From what I have seen so far Richard is quite an unusual name in the Pentland family. Since the practise back then was to name children after older relatives is there not some mileage in checking out the Richards in the various parishes and trying to identify how they are related?

[worldlywanderer]

You are welcome Planter. It's very useful to see the source of material and particularly with Irish references, invaluable to know about aural sources. While they may suffer from lapses of memory it has been my experience that most contain at least a grain of truth.

So far as the Gilmerton story is concerned I have researched the Midlothian Pentland families extensively and there is no recorded baptism for a Richard Pentland. There is one Richard Pentland in the 1891/1901 censuses, born in Ireland around 1866 with no connections yet discovered and one further reference, so far uncorroborated, of a Richard Pentland descended from Joseph Pentland, a Scot who married Isabella Fulton White. His father, also Joseph  was the son of  William Pentleton and Elizabeth Mains both from Ireland according to the 1861 census although when Joseph's birth was registered in 1857 his father had recorded the family name as Pentland.

any information about the parentage of this couple would be much appreciated.

So far I have not managed to find Joseph and Elizabeth Mains in Ireland.