Author Topic: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?  (Read 4393 times)

Offline FishMan

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Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« on: Friday 28 April 06 17:19 BST (UK) »
The photos attached are supposedly my great grandfather William Henry FISHER and his father-in-law James Lumber McCALLUM.

William Henry born 17 July 1859 achieved the rank of Lieutenant in The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) 23 May 1883. I am wholly unfamiliar with terms military - there is also reference to 1st Brigade / Batallion at 65 St Anne Street Liverpool. What might this mean? I don't believe he was a full-time soldier.

James Lumber born 7 June 1823 Woolwich Barracks, Kent served with the Royal Artillery in Malta in the 1850's and after returning to the UK had postings in West Greenock and Ardersier in Scotland before reaching the rank of Major, Coastal Brigade of Artillery 7 June 1878.

Is anyone able to confirm whether the pictured men's uniforms are consistent with their supposed ranks and service histories?
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 30 April 06 19:54 BST (UK) »



Hi Fishman and welcome to RootsChat !!

I can't answer your question about uniforms - I'm afraid - but I did find this snippet .......

James L. McCALLUM Sergeant-Major Royal Artillery married 10th April 1856 to Matilda S. GARDINER from Dublin

http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/bam.htm

You may like to go through that site - it maybe of interest to you !!

Annie  :) :) :)

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http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 01 May 06 04:51 BST (UK) »


By any chance do you know the names of any of Matildas family ? - found a few Gardiners on this page !!

http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/bag.htm

Annie  :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 01 May 06 05:18 BST (UK) »


Do these McCallum's sound familiar ??

Elizabeth McCallum born on Cephalonia

Robert McCallum died on Cephalonia

http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/Ionian2.htm

Annie  :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I


Offline FishMan

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 01 May 06 06:43 BST (UK) »
Annie (you are my heroine),

While nothing appears in this 2nd link that 100% confirms a relationship with my Matilda Somerville GARDINER, John Somerville GARDINER b. 5/11/1847 must almost certainly be related. His parents John GARDINER (42nd Regiment) and Phoebe (nee ALLEN) could also be linked in that Matilda's first child was named Phoebe. If this is the same John GARDINER who dies in 1849 it would be interesting to know if Matilda was considered one of his widow's 4 young children, she would be 10 or 11 by then. Perhaps this was why she married very young just 7 years later? Interestingly Phoebe (nee ALLEN) remarries also just a year after Matilda.

I now suspect Phoebe (nee ALLEN) and John (married 3/11/1832) to be Matilda's parents, but I cannot explain references to Matilda's birthplace as Dublin, Ireland. Perhaps they are her aunt & uncle and she is sent to live with them because of the potato famine in Ireland in the 1840's.

Matilda Somerville marries James Lumber MCCALLUM in April 1856 (15 year age difference), they return to Woolwich, Kent, England later that year and their first daughter Phoebe Annie MCCALLUM is born 29/6/1857. Matilda and James appear in the 1861 census of Scotland living at 63 Regent Street, West Greenock, Renfrewshire with 3 daughters Phoebe Annie, Matilda Evelyn and Mary Newton MCCALLUM.  Matilda Somerville was aged 22 at this time and this would place her birth about 1838/39. She died only a year later in 1862 in Dover, Kent near to family.

Next step will be to check the service record of John GARDINER sergeant in 42nd Regiment based in Malta (1832-1849).

Thanks for all your help,


FishMan
FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)

LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 01 May 06 07:37 BST (UK) »


Hi Fish man !

In case you don't have enough to do .......  ::) heres the movements of the regiments ......... !!

http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/regiments2.htm

Annie  :) :) :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline M.T.H

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 01 May 06 14:19 BST (UK) »
Wow!,A fantastic bit of detective work Annie!!

I've been scratching my head over this one for a while..... :P

I now know why I couldn't find James Lumber McCallum in the army list for the period that he was in Malta. He was a regular soldier that left the army and took a commision in the Coastal Brigade which was a militia unit.

It is usually possible to track on officer's career by consulting the army lists. They were produced yearly and list all officers serving in the army (the Militia only appear in the lists after 1867). They include information such as promotion dates and war services,they also list retired officers.I have quite a few of these lists, so I looked for James Lumber McCallum and he is mentioned in the 1876 (active list) and the 1885 on the retired officers list, his regiment is given as Coastal Brigade Artillery and it gives his promotion dates as;

Lieutenant - 1st April 1860

Captain - 19th January 1875

Major - 7th June 1878

In the 1876 it also states that he had served for 16 years on full pay,which would be consistent with his commision in 1860.

There are no war services listed for him,not surprising as Militia units only served at home! any war service he might have had whilst a non-commisioned officer won't be included.

It might be worth noting for future searches that his surnname in the Army list is written as M'callum.

Alas! for Lt Fisher,I could find no mention,no doubt he will be in the one of the army lists that I don't have! ::) ::)

The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) was the oldest regiment in the British Army and their HQ was indeed at 65 St Anne Street Liverpool.The 1st Battalion were regulars (as opposed to Militia).

Of the two photo's, the bottom one is definately the earliest,both men are pictured with swords which would indicate that they are officers as opposed to rank and file soldiers.

Hope this helps a bit,

Good luck with your search FishMan,

Mick ;)
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

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Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 01 May 06 15:37 BST (UK) »


I found a book that's a published history - not sure where to buy it yet !! will look for it .......

Historical Records of the Kings Liverpool Regiment (1904) R. Cannon

History of the Regiment from 1685 to 1903. Contains biographies of officers with dates of commissions and promotions

Annie  :) :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline M.T.H

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Re: Do these Uniforms confirm their identities?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 01 May 06 18:35 BST (UK) »
Next step will be to check the service record of John GARDINER sergeant in 42nd Regiment based in Malta (1832-1849).

There is a John Gardiner in the soldiers discharge papers in WO97 at the National Archives.He served in the 42nd regiment, and whilst no rank is given,it's quite possible that he was a sergeant as he served for 23 years! also he is the only John Gardiner listed that served in the 42nd.To give you an idea of the information that these documents can contain, have a read of this,scroll down to the heading 'Soldiers Discharged Through Chelsea Hospital'.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/BritMilRecs.html

National Archives;

http://tinyurl.com/osuh7

Mick :)



Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

British Military History