Parish Records for BURNS - Dumfries

[Kenda1]

Hi
I am trying to trace my family who I know are related to Rabbie Burns - but I can't get back far enough! Any census or parish records would be a big help. I have the following basic details:-
John Hastie Burns b 25/01/1901 - 1979 (Dumfries)
m
Polly Mary Sellars b 11/01/1893 - 1975 (Crichton, Dumfries)
parents
James Burns b 27/05/1858 - 1925 children Thomas, Peter, Grace, Wilhemina, Frances
m 19/03/1886
Frances Hastie 1865 - 1945 approx
parents
Peter Burns & Grace Kerr Brown

Much appreciated.

[audrey]

this is the only birth I can find for Peter & Grace

BURNS, Ann Kerr   
born   9 Feb 1854   at   , Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
            
   Fath.   Peter BURNS
   Moth.   Grace BROWN

audrey

[MonicaL]

Hi Kenda

Apart from the Ann Kerr Burns that you have from Audrey, there are a few more children showing on IGI for Peter and Grace Brown including your James:

1. CHARLES WILLIAM BURNS Birth: 02 JUL 1860 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
2. ROBERT BURNS Birth: 06 JAN 1867 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
3. JANE BERWICK BURNS Birth: 03 JUL 1870 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
4. THOMASINA GRACE BURNS  Birth: 01 MAY 1856 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
5. ANN BURNS Birth: 28 JUN 1862 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
6. JAMES BURNS Birth: 27 MAY 1858 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
7. ANN KERR BURNS Birth: 09 FEB 1854 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland

There are two entries for their marriage. I would imagine that Banns were read at both places where each of them lived:

1. PETTER BURNS  Marriage: 18 SEP 1853 Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
2. PETER BURNS Marriage: 27 SEP 1853 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland

If you searched for Peter Burns death cert on Scotlands People this would confirm to you who Peter's parents were and enable you to get back a generation.

There are certainly plenty of records relating to Rabbie Burns. Hopefully you will make the link. This site in particular is a fairly detailed study of Robert Burns and descendants www.burness.ca/burns.html

Regards.

Monica

ADDED: Curiosity got the better of me! I found Peter Burns's death cert. He died in Dumfries in 1898 at the age of 74 (b. circa 1824) married to Grace Brown (which confirms we've got the right one). His son James reported the death.

The bad news is that Peter's parents' details are blank. This would normally mean that his son didn't know their names. Sorry! The best way forward with Peter would be I imagine to try and find him in the 1841 Census hopefully at home with family/parents.

I've found Grace Brown's death cert as well. I haven't viewed the image. She died in 1900 age 72, birth year circa 1828.

I think this might be her birth details on IGI:

GRACE BROWN  Birth:  08 JAN 1827  Kirkmahoe, Dumfries, Scotland
Parents: Father:  CHARLES BROWN    Mother:  ANN KERR

There are a number of siblings showing for Grace on IGI

[Kenda1]

Hi Monica

That's brilliant  - it has filled in a lot of blanks.

I have searched for ages but am stuck on Grace's parents. Charles Brown & Ann Kerr. I found them on the census (even her sister Mary Kerr b 1811) but am struggling with Ann. I have found an Isabella Ann & she shows on the 1841 census aged 40 with a James Kerr aged 65 however on the 1861 census there is a James aged 62 & Isabella aged 60 so I'm not sure which is correct. Both census ages match.
There is also a James aged 3 on the 1861 census (which matches my James) showing as James & Isabella's grandson but I can't get it to fit UNLESS this was Ann's brothers family.

Mary's parents show as Andrew Kerr & Janet H
on the IGI records.

Can you help me untangle this lot as i believe they are all related but need to make sure before I go off in the wrong direction!

Cheers

LESLEY

[MonicaL]

Hi Lesley

I'm getting a bit confused here, so lets break it down a bit!

I have found some census data re Grace and family, not sure what you've already got:

1841 Census: Charles and Ann Kerr, Grace still at home

BROWN Charles     46    Roadman     Dumfries-shire            
BROWN (Mrs.)   40            Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Samuel   15   Agri. Labourer Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Grace   14   Agri. Labourer Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Charles   12            Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Thomas   10            Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Adam   5            Dumfries-shire            
BROWN Alex:   3            Dumfries-shire            
BROWN George    6m           Dumfries-shire            
KERR    Mary       30    Agri. Labourer Dumfries-shire S-I-L to Charles Brown

Address: Kirkton, Kirkmahoe-Dumfries-shire


1851 Census: Charles has died, Ann showing as widow. Grace left home

BROWN or KERR Ann, age 49, head/widow, born Penpont Dms
BROWN Alexander, son, age 12, born Kirkmahoe Dms
BROWN Charles, son, age 21, Agri. Labourer, born Kirkmahoe Dms
BROWN Janet, daug, age 18, Agri. Labourer, born Kirkmahoe Dms
BROWN Samuel, grandson, age 4, born Dumfries, Dms

Address: Summervale(835)
Parish: Kirkmahoe

There is a death entry on SP for an Ann Brown other name Kerr, 1800-1870, death in Kirkmahoe which is probably your Ann. With Charles dying before 1855, it will be hard at this stage to confirm his parents (unless you have these already?).

There are probably others, but you should have a look at this site re Penpont Heritage and families. They appear to have archive material for Brown/Kerr families of old (Ann Kerr would appear to have been from Penpont):

www.penpontheritage.co.uk/7.html

Now, I don't know if you are aware that Grace Brown had a first marriage before she married Peter Burns in 1853. There is another marriage entry for her in 1851:

GRACE BROWN  Marriages: JAMES RUSSELL 09 JUN 1850 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland. This marriage produced one child, Agnes, who shows as step-daughter in 1861.

This bit I got slightly lost. Re your James, he is living at home with his parents Grace and Peter in 1861, not with any grandparents:

1861 Census in Dumfries, Dms:

Burns Peter, 37 wool weaver, b. annan
Burns Grace, 32, former Grocer, b. Kirkmahoe
Burns Jane, 60, widow, b. Ireland (YOU'VE NOW GOT THE NAME OF PETER'S MOTHER!)
Russell Agnes, 10, step-daughter,
Burns Thomasina, age 5
Burns James, age 3
Burns Charles William, age 9months

Monica

   

[Kenda1]

Hi Monica

That's brilliant - I wasn't aware of a first marriage. Only 2 years before she married again - wonder if he died. Will look into that.

Will look into the rest. Is it better to do searches based on surname only, or parish? What gets the best results?

Cheers

LESLEY

[MonicaL]

Hi Lesley

In respect of searches, you really have to try all the avenues, parishes and surnames. Not an exhaustive list:

- Couples moved around sometimes between parishes and sometimes counties

- Some births are only registered in the name of the father with no mother's details (to search for these on IGI you have to use individual parish codes assuming you know which ones to search in). You can find these for Scotland on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryScotland.htm

- If using IGI only, be aware that in some cases only girl births have been loaded on for certain parishes/time periods. If you double check on Scotlands People you can in some cases pick up additional male birth records.

- At all times remember that records of all births for a couple are simply sometimes not going to be available: births/christinings not recorded/done, OPRs lost/ missing, birth record not yet indexed by SP (for example as in the case of Roman Catholic birth/christening details).

Monica

[MonicaL]

Lesley

On to Ann Kerr! These are her details:

Ann Kerr Brown b. circa 1800 Penpont, Dms.  Parents: John Kerr, shoemaker, and Agnes Gibson. She died in Kirkmahoe in 1870.

Now from these details, I think this is her father still alive in 1841 FreeCen:

KERR Helen 45 Labourer Day Agricultural Dumfries-shire
KERR John 80 Shoemaker Dumfries-shire
     
Address: Drum, Dunscore-Dumfries-shire

From this info, we now know that Ann Kerr had at least two other sisters:

Helen b. 1790-95 (remember 1841 census can round down ages by up to 5yrs)
Mary b. 1805-10 (at home with Ann and her family in 1841).

There is a submitted entry on IGI for a John Ker b. 1760 in Penpont (I've double checked on SP and this is so) to parents James Ker and Mary Hoatson.
A parent search on IGI with these names shows only two girls details (my point from the last post!):

Batch Number: c118452
1. MARY KER - Christening: 03 MAR 1765 Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
2. AGNESS KER Christening: 05 MAR 1762 Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland

I'll PM you with more details.

Monica
   


   

[lesleyp1964]

Hi,


can you help me...pleeeaasssee! I have been to burness.ca...but I don't understand it...would agnes broun, or her siblings be directly related to my late mother in law...olive broun, who passed away, last year?


kind regards

lesley