AAARRRGGGHHH that damned brick wall again...

[Rachel_79]

I wonder if my geography has been rubbish and that I need to assume Flixton and Urmston are closer than I am led to believe...

And bearing in mind that the family are from the Flixton area, this entry on the IGI looks promising:

James Shawcross christened 28 August, 1796 in Flixton
parents John and Nancy Shawcross

[Valda]

From Googling Urmston I think you'll find, as a parish in its own right, it only existed from 1868 onwards. Until 1868 it appears Urmston was part of the parish of St Michael Flixton, so you should look in the parish records of Flixton for the Shawcrosses (presuming they were Anglicans). IGI coverage of Flixton is only for the years 1726-1812 - so no coverage of marriages in Flixton for James and Ann's possible marriage there, or their childrens' baptisms.
I think you will need to search the Flixton marriage register itself for James and Ann's marriage to have any hope of knowing which James Shawcross baptism is correct  (unless the baptismal register specifies Urmston for one of these baptisms - the most likely being the 1797 one - but likely and what is factually correct do not always coincide). You will also need the marriage for Ann's maiden name if the marriage proves to be in Flixton.

JAMES SHAWCROSS  
Christening:  28 AUG 1796   Flixton, Lancashire
Father:  JOHN SHAWCROSS  
Mother:  NANCY  

JAMES SHAWCROSS  
Christening:  05 NOV 1797   Flixton, Lancashire
Father:  HENRY SHAWCROSS  
Mother:  ANN  

JAMES SHAWCROSS  
Christening:  06 JUL 1801   Flixton, Lancashire
Parents:
Mother:  ALICE SHAWCROSS  

(no Ann Prescott baptism in Flixton registers circa 1796 on the IGI).

1841 census HO107 543/16 folio 9 Page 12 (adult ages on the 1841 census are rounded down to the nearest 5)
Urmston, Flixton  Lancashire  
James Shawcross 40  Lancashire Cotton Weaver
Ann Shawcross 50  Lancashire
Hannah Shawcross 13 Lancashire
Matthew Shawcross 12  Lancashire
William Shawcross 9  Lancashire
Henry Shawcross 7  Lancashire,
John Shawcross 4  Lancashire  

It is dangerous to rely just on the IGI. It is a very incomplete index. Just because the IGI has a marriage between a James Shawcross and an Ann on the index in Lancashire at about the right time, does not prove it is the right marriage - though it still might be - you need to check the actual Manchester Cathedral register itself to find that couples' parish/es and hope they didn't stay in Manchester for three weeks prior to the event to establish residency. Manchester Cathedral was a church of convenience and married just about anyone from anywhere - it was a very popular venue.
 
The internet can only get you so far before you need to check the actual records themselves.

Regards

Valda

[Rachel_79]

Thanks Valda and ive just been googling Urmston as well (how spooky) and this was the information I needed:

JAMES SHAWCROSS 
Christening:  28 AUG 1796   Flixton, Lancashire
Father:  JOHN SHAWCROSS 
Mother:  NANCY 

Ann's surname was Prescote but has also been spelt as Prescott and Prescatt.

[Valda]

Why the 1796 baptism and not the 1797 baptism?
On the 1851 census (night of March 30th) James gave his age as 53 which seems more compatible with a baptism in November 1797 than August 1796 - but neither of us knows when the children were actually born from just the baptism index alone? Flixton parish registers would cover baptisms in Flixton, Urmston and I imagine Davyhulme as well so only the register itself would indicate where the parents lived and therefore hopefully exclude the other baptism and if you are really lucky this early, give a date of birth as well. The burial register should also be checked since many childrens' baptisms are followed up with unfortunately an early death.

1861 census RG9 2866 folio 96
Frant Lane Urmston  Lancashire   
James Shawcross 63  Urmston, Lancashire, Head  Widower Cotton Weaver
John Shawcross 24 Urmston, Lancashire,  Son Groom and Gardener

1871 census he gives his age as 73 so he is very consistent.

Deaths Dec 1871
Shawcross  James  74  Barton  8c 398

Luckily the IGI is an excellent index for spelling variations so it would pick up most variations in spelling of the surname Prescott.

Have you managed to establish Ann's surname from a birth of a child (John) occurring during civil registration - from his birth certificate?

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

These are the potential Anns (with petnames etc that double up as Ann) who had baptisms in the Flixton register in 1795 and 1796 from the IGI index. There are no Ann Prescotts unfortunately.

HANNAH OTTIWILS
Christening: 15 FEB 1795
(HANNAH SPEAKMAN Christening: 06 FEB 1795, Death: 06 MAR 1795)
HANNAH RIGBY
Christening: 17 MAY 1795
ANN HESKETH
Christening: 26 JUL 1795
HANNAH LEATHWOOD
Christening: 26 JUL 1795 
ANN JOHNSON
Christening: 09 AUG 1795 
ANN JOHNSON
Christening: 16 AUG 1795
HANNAH HOUGH
Christening: 29 NOV 1795
ANN BOOTH
Christening: 20 DEC 1795
ANN DARBYSHIRE
Christening: 20 DEC 1795
ANN CARRINGTON
Christening: 03 JAN 1796
NANCY VALENTINE
Christening: 29 MAY 1796
ANN PARRIN
Christening: 07 AUG 1796
ANN COOKE
Christening: 21 AUG 1796
ANN WOOD
Christening: 01 SEP 1796
ANN BARLOW
Christening: 02 OCT 1796 
HANNAH HAMNET
Christening: 16 OCT 1796

Regards

Valda

[Rachel_79]

Hi Valda, I acquired that information from someone who has reseached that part of the tree already with regards to Ann and James of which I also have the IGI for.... Your help has been brilliant, thank you...

Why the 1796 baptism and not the 1797 baptism?
On the 1851 census (night of March 30th) James gave his age as 53 which seems more compatible with a baptism in November 1797 than August 1796 - but neither of us knows when the children were actually born from just the baptism index alone? Flixton parish registers would cover baptisms in Flixton, Urmston and I imagine Davyhulme as well so only the register itself would indicate where the parents lived and therefore hopefully exclude the other baptism and if you are really lucky this early, give a date of birth as well. The burial register should also be checked since many childrens' baptisms are followed up with unfortunately an early death.

1861 census RG9 2866 folio 96
Frant Lane Urmston  Lancashire   
James Shawcross 63  Urmston, Lancashire, Head  Widower Cotton Weaver
John Shawcross 24 Urmston, Lancashire,  Son Groom and Gardener

1871 census he gives his age as 73 so he is very consistent.

Deaths Dec 1871
Shawcross  James  74  Barton  8c 398

Luckily the IGI is an excellent index for spelling variations so it would pick up most variations in spelling of the surname Prescott.

Have you managed to establish Ann's surname from a birth of a child (John) occurring during civil registration - from his birth certificate?

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

Rachel
you just have to ask where their evidence is for Ann's surname being Prescott, or whether they have they just made assumptions from the IGI? If the tree is researched then the evidence for Ann Prescott should be easily forth coming. It is a simple 'how do you know'?
If John's birth was registered and a birth certificate acquired you would also know his date of birth from the tree? If not at the very least the Flixton marriage register had to be checked to eliminate a marriage there, and then the Manchester Cathedral register checked to find the parishes of origin of that James and Ann, or how else is it proved? If Flixton registers were checked then obviously the registers should also have yielded up the names and the baptismal dates for James and Ann's children.
So do you have all this information on the tree?
Why is the earlier baptism the correct baptism for James when his age on censuses and at death would seem to indicate the 1797 baptism is the likeliest? Has the baptismal register been checked and it indicates that Henry and Ann were not from Urmston but John and Nancy were?

The year older James Shawcross still appears to be living in Urmston on the 1851 census.

HO107 2218 folio 441
Fant Urmston  Lancashire 
James Shawcross 54  Stretford, Lancashire,  Head Married Farmer 36 acres
Mary Shawcross 50  Urmston, Lancashire, Wife  Married
Helen Shawcross 30  Urmston, Lancashire,  Daughter Employed at home
Elizabeth Shawcross 28  Urmston, Lancashire, Daughter  Employed at home
Matthew Shawcross 23  Urmston, Lancashire,  Son Employed on the farm
James Shawcross 19  Urmston, Lancashire,  Son  Draper
John Shawcross 16  Urmston, Lancashire,  Son  Grocer
Amos Shawcross 13  Urmston, Lancashire,  Son 
David Shawcross 11 Urmston, Lancashire,  Son 
Isaac Shawcross 10 Urmston, Lancashire,  Son 

Stretford I believe is in Flixton parish as well.

1841 census HO107 543/16 Folio 7 Page 10
Frant Urmston Flixton  Lancashire
James Shawcross 45  Lancashire  Farmer
Mary Shawcross 40  Lancashire
Ellen Shawcross 20  Lancashire
Elizabeth Shawcross 15  Lancashire
William Shawcross 15  Lancashire
John Shawcross 6 not born Lancashire
Amos Shawcross 3  Lancashire
David Shawcross 1  Lancashire

Both men have sons called John and William.
Does your father-in-law descend from the cotton weaver or the farmer and how do you know?

Regards

Valda

[erznmine]

 

I believe Rachel will soon have all the Shawcross information she needs to confirm her findings.

All the info she has received so far HAS been verified and documented 102 yrs ago and has since been double confirmed by myself during 3 years of 24/7 research into the Shawcross name ..... not to mention other descendants of John & Nancy, who between us, have already covered other possible James Shawcross's.... the James Shawcross b 1797 did have children with similar names but not born in correct years.... that line ~ and the 1801 James has already been researched and covered by other Shawcross researchers .... as has this particular line !

The information gleened, has, as far as I'm aware, been checked by 3 seperate people following the same branch ~ not to mention me as well !


Elaine ;-)

[Valda]

Then I don't understand why we are doing lookups if the basic records such as Flixton parish registers and the censuses have all been thoroughly checked and researched?! Where's the brick wall??

Regards

Valda