1861 Please

[lancs.fox]

Hi Glyn,

Had a little time free today so had another look for William Edward Jones in 1861.

Unfortunately no joy again as yet.

However, I thought that I would make a search for that person's birth to see whether that would shed any light.  In a way it has.

There is no birth in the indexes for a William Edward Jones in the Greater Manchester area for the period 1853 to 1855 inclusive.  The nearest I could find was a William Edward Jones born in the Chorlton registration district in December Qtr. 1856.  Could this be your man?

Not that he would have necessarily have had that location entered in a census: an area or district within that registration district might have been his actual place of birth and that might appear instead.

What is the earliest positive finding that you have for William Edward?  Is there any additional information there that you could let us have which might assist in finding him in 1861?
There is so little to go on at the moment.

Richard

[collin]

Hi Richard,
                Thankyou for taking so much trouble, I think the easiest would be to look for 1871 a 17 year old painter son of William a blacksmith with a sister Margaret. The earliest I have is his marriage in Dec 1876 age 22 so he was born 1854 and this follows as he
is 27, 37 and 47 in1901 at Llandudno, but the family are in Aston Birmingham then went to Blackpool in 1901 where he died.
  Many thanks Glyn

[collin]

Hi Richard,
                 I have been passing time reading posts, and you seem to be very knowledgable, can I just ask about Lancashire at the time of the cotton famine. My family were at Oldham, and we had a relative called Jonathan Collin in 1861 he was a 30 year old moulder living with his sister & family at Lower Moor probably worked at Platts. Where might he move to if work dried up in Oldham? Theres no marriage or death nothing in the later census
its a real mystery. By 1873 his sister, husband & 5 grown up children were all dead, buried at Friarmere as they hailed from Saddleworth. There was an elder brother in Wisconsin but he didnt go there. I am stumped, thought someone may have an idea
  Sorry to be a nuisance   Regards Glyn

[lancs.fox]

Hi Glyn,

Sorry to have been a bit slow replying but I've been doing some delving into the censuses to see if I could find any clues there about Jonathon Collin, but, not surprisingly, without any tangible or constructive success. 

I've found the 1851 entry where Jonathon was an Apprentice Joiner and the 1861 entry, where he was listed as 'Cotten' on the census page, when he was shown to be an Iron Moulder.

Strangely, his brother Joseph was listed as a 'Moulder' in 1851 and as a 'House Joiner' in 1861, both brothers living with their sister Mally's family.

Was there effectively a job swap between the two brothers between 1851 and 1861 or, more likely, a transcription error on the part of the enumerator?

Whatever, I cannot find either brother on the 1871 census, having checked under numerous name variables.

A real mystery.

I don't know how badly the Cotton famine of 1861-65 affected Oldham, but probably quite seriously and this could have caused Jonathon to have to look elsewhere than his then employers for work.

I would have thought that there would have still have been sufficient work for someone whose trade was an Iron Moulder (and possibly a Joiner too) elsewhere in Oldham and certainly down the road in Manchester (there was a good rail link established between the two towns by the 1860s - with probably a better service that exists today!).  Yorkshire, a short rail trip across the Pennines, would also have been an option as its industry was predominantly wool based and not affected by the Cotton Famine.

When looking for Jonathon and Joseph on the censuses post-1861 I did look beyond Lancashire, indeed looked nationwide.

I'll have another look when I get a few moments, but don't expect to be successful - still, you never know.

Sorry I cannot be of more help.

Regards,

Richard   

[collin]

Hi richard
               thankyou for all your trouble, Jonathan is a real mystery
the only reason I can think he left Oldham is if he was a missionary or something, I know Platts traded all over the world, he could have gone to Russia with the firm.  There is a Jonathan
Collins death in Dec 1860, but surely he would,nt show in the 1861 census?. I have Joseph & Amelia Collin in 1871 somewhere,
I think they had a pub then went to Heap St where he died in 1891. Mallys husband was a joiner so he would learn them the trade, their brother James (my ancestor) took over their fathers machine making buisness so would learn blacksmithing from him
probably helped in both buisnesses. Joseph married well and died a wealthy man but none of them mention their bother on gravestones. As I say a real mystery.   Many thanks again
Regard Glyn

[collin]

Hi Richard
                You really got me thinking last night, I know Joseph & Mally both had pubs in 1871, she at Shaw Rd and he at 38 Lees Rd (Rose & Crown) from the 1871 trade directory, but I couldnt find the census entry so assumed the page was missing.
   Their brother Job died in Lodi Wisconsin in 1873 after a long
illness, I wonder if Joseph &Jonathan had gone to USA visiting?
 They would miss the 1870 USA &1871 UK census, Joseph would be able to leave someone in charge of the pub,to come back to.
 The only thing I can do is get to Oldham and trawl the Chronicle for an announcment about Jonathan dying. I have already asked
about the Lodi newspaper which only started in 1870, and they are not indexed.  Thankyou again for jogging my memory.
      Regards Glyn

[collin]

Hi again Richard, sorry to bother you again,but I have been reading over the messages, and the Joseph with Mally in 1851 is
her eldest son Joseph Thomas born out of wedlock in 1831 he died in 1870, but he kept the Collin name. The brother Joseph was living with another sister
 Ann Green at Moorhey in 1851. You said both Joseph & Jonathan
 were missing in 1871, can you spot his wife Amelia & daughter
 Betty b. 1856. Amelia was a few years older than Joseph they only just managed to have a child due to her age. If they are all
missing then have probably gone to Wisconsin to visit Job. I cant
think they would need to leave Oldham for work reasons as it was a boom town then. Thanks a lot for your trouble,
  Regards Glyn

[lancs.fox]

Hi Glyn,

Absolutely no trouble at all to have another look - indeed, your persistence in trying to find Joseph has paid off, for, joy of joys, I found Betty and, through her, the rest of that household (strange that Betty was correctly indexed but I couldn't locate Joseph before).

Anyway, here they are:-

1871 Census

38 Lees Road, Mumps, Oldham 

Joseph Collin - Head - md. - 48 - Licensed Victualler - b. Lancs., Oldham

Amelia Collin - w. - md. - 49 - b. Yorks., Saddleworth

Betty Collin - d. - unm. - 16 - Scholar - b. Lancs., Oldham

Hannah Lee(s) Grady - niece - unm. - 29 - General Servant - b. Lancs., Oldham

Ref:  RG10 / 4100 / ED8 / f.38 / p.7

That leaves Jonathon unaccounted for.  Unfortunately, though, we do not have any additional names to assist in locating him - indeed he may not have married.

Anyway, I'm out tomorrow watching my local rugby league team take on, ironically, Oldham, but when I get home I'll have a further search for that elusive man.

One down, one to go!

Regards,

Richard

 

[lancs.fox]

Hi Glyn,

Back again.

Something has been troubling me about the 1871 Census entry for Joseph (family with wife Amelia and Betty which you asked me to look for) set out in the last posting, so I've had a look at the 1861 Census again to try to clarify matters - but I'm more confused now!

If you recall, there is an entry in the 1861 Census for a Joseph 'Cotten' and his brother Jonathon 'Cotten' (assumed to be the Collins boys) living with a Mally Whitehead and family.  Joseph was described as a 'House Painter' and, more importantly, as being single.

Yet, in the 1871 Census for the family which included a wife Amelia and daughter Betty, the latter's age is 16.  Therefore, Betty was born before 1861 which brings one, at least, of the Collin / 'Cotten' families into question.

So, what does the 1861 Census reveal?  The Joseph 'Cotten' and Jonathon 'Cotten' family of course, but also another family comprising Joseph Collin, Amelia and Betty.
They cannot, surely, both be right - but which is?

Anyway, here is the new 1861 Census entry for you to peruse:-

1861 Census

Lees Road, Oldham

Joseph Collin - Head - md. - 38 - Innkeeper - b. Lancs., Oldham

Amelia Collin - w. - md. - 41 - b. Yorks., Saddleworth

Betty Collin - d. - 6 - b. Lancs., Oldham

Mary Lees - mother in law - wid. - 75 - b. Yorks., Saddleworth

Hannah Gradly (Gradby?) - niece - unm. - 19 - b. Lancs., Oldham

Ref:  RG9 / 3017 / ED8 / f. 72 / p.26


Let me know what you think.

**** see ps below ****


Regards,

Richard


**** ps.

I think the problem above has just been solved, thanks to a careful reading of your last posting.

The Joseph living with Mally and Jonathon in 1861 was listed in the Census of that year as 'Joseph T. Cotten' - hence he was Mally's eldest son born out of wedlock, Joseph Thomas Collin, and not Jonathon's brother as first thought.

So there is now, I think, no conflict between the various entries.

****