Interpretation of Marriage Cert

[acorngen]

The fact is by the information you have provided the woman was illigitimate and that the male you mention as her father is one she has been told his her father.  She would I presume have her mothers maiden name if you are able to locate that.

It is very easy for us to start looking for something that isn't there and that is what you are doing by running off getting info on this chap.  Unless you can prove through a bastardy order or something from the overseers of the parish where she lived you cannot say with any certainty that this chap is indeed her father.  How easy would it be for her mother to have been in service and in the space of say a week for her to have slept with the groom, the lord and maybe his son and then for reasons of saving face some 15 years later say " Hey your dad is lord whats his name down the road"

Try finding a census pre marriage of her and see who she is living with.

Take your time, dont rush into different branches, hunt out all the possibilities after all they aint going anywhere

Rob

[Wendi]

That's really good advise Rob, ideally trying to find Mom and daughter together in the 1841 and 1851 Census.

Wendi 

[ChrisAllonby]

The fact is by the information you have provided the woman was illigitimate and that the male you mention as her father is one she has been told his her father.  She would I presume have her mothers maiden name if you are able to locate that.

It is very easy for us to start looking for something that isn't there and that is what you are doing by running off getting info on this chap.  Unless you can prove through a bastardy order or something from the overseers of the parish where she lived you cannot say with any certainty that this chap is indeed her father.  How easy would it be for her mother to have been in service and in the space of say a week for her to have slept with the groom, the lord and maybe his son and then for reasons of saving face some 15 years later say " Hey your dad is lord whats his name down the road"

Try finding a census pre marriage of her and see who she is living with.

Take your time, dont rush into different branches, hunt out all the possibilities after all they aint going anywhere

Rob

Hi Rob,

In the 1851 census Dewhurst Bilsbury is seen to be living with Isabella, his daughter, which does suggest Dewhurst may well be her father. I've tried the Miller link, but so far nothing has turned up. One avenue I've recently been exploring is that Dewhurst was her father but she left home with her mother, who then married (or lived with) someone called Miller. Again, nothing can be deduced from the census returns. I can't understand why Isabella's "father" is not listed on the marriage in 1864 but is listed when she remarried in 1888.

Regards,
Chris.

[acorngen]

Chris,

I refer you back to my original post.  Then add to it the following.  You go to a regitrar and say hey I am getting married, the registrar says really well can you answer me this.   How old are you? Where are you living? Whats your husband to be name? Answer I don't knowe but mum says its joe bloggs.  IN 1864 registrar says are you sre and miss miller says no so it sleft blank.
In the 1880 she says yes I am sure and its put down, remember at the height of victorainism illigitimacy was frowned upon.. Then we have the question how sure are you that the first marriag eis in fact your isabella miller after all both names are fairly common

Rob

[ChrisAllonby]

Hi Rob,

I think on balance that Isabella is the daughter of Dewhurst Bilsbury, but of course one can never be certain. Dewhurst has a daughter living with him of the correct name and age in 1851. His name is given on the marraige cert' in 1888, and Isabella named one of her sons Dewhurst. On the birth cert' of her son, Dewhurst, she gives her former name as Miller. The addesses given for John Park and Isabella Miller on the certificate tie in with lots of other information.

The mystery is why she was known as Miller and yet was a spinster in 1864. Interestingly, one of the children listed as living with Isabella in 1871 was named as Margaret Ann Miller when she got married.

For whatever reason Isabella was known as Miller prior to 1864, it does at least provide a possible explanation as to why her father's name is not on the certificate:

1864
------
Registrar: What is your condition?
Isabella: Spinster.

Registrar: What is your surname?
Isabella: Miller.

Registrar: What is the name of your father?
Isabella thinks - I can't tell him it's Dewhurst Bilsbury - what would he make of that?
Isabella: I never know my father.

1888
------
Registrar: What is your condition?
Isabella: Widow.

Registrar: What is your surname?
Isabella: Park.

Registrar: What is the name of your father?
Isabella thinks - No problem with Dewhurst Bilsbury this time, now that I'm a widow.
Isabella: Dewhurst Bilsbury.

Possibly I'll never know the full story, but the above is looking more reasonable. If only I could find some link to Miller. But there's another twist to it!!

On the marriage cert' from 1888 the witnesses are Margaret Ann and Francis Huddleston. Ah! another Margaret Ann - what's going on here. On checking FreeBMD there's a marriage between Margaret Ann Miller and Francis Huddleston. But I've already sorted out Margaret Ann Miller - in some detail - she married someone called Athersmith. Are there two Margaret Ann Millers, one the duaghter of Isabella, and another the witness at her wedding in 1888? I haven't been able to resolve it. However, I did get the marraige cert' for Huddleston. Father's name of the bride: Jacob Miller. I can't find any other reference to a Jacob Miller - not one that fits, anyway. Margaret Ann Huddleston is "living" in Lancaster Castle Prison in 1891. They are obviously a bad lot!

Chris.

[acorngen]

Chris,

Have you received or found a birth cert for this girl?  If not then it could be that her mother married someone called MILLER after she feel pregnant and that is why your ancestor is known as such.

I agree naming a child after the supposed father would suggest it but to be fair there is no proof that he is the father and you should only add a name when it is beyond any reasonable doubt.

On another note I noticed you are reasearching BURNS.  Where are your lot from as my own name i BURNS and I have hit somewhat of a major brick wall with it

Rob

[ChrisAllonby]

Rob,

Yes, I will obtain the birth certificate of Margaret Ann Miller, but it might well raise more questions than it answers, if pastexperience is anything to go by.

My maternal grandfather was Edward Burns of Ulverston. I've been able to trace the Burns line back to his grandfather, but then like you, came up against a brick wall - that wall being Ireland. According to census returns Patrick Burns was born in Ireland in 1842. He emigrated to Liverpool some time before 1866. He may have been in Liverpool in 1861 - there are Patrick Burns' listed, but I don't know which, if any, is him. His wife, Mary Carroll, was also born in Ireland. I have found no trace of their wedding in English records, so maybe they married in Ireland before emigrating. One of his sons returned to Ireland and married in Drogheda, so I wonder if Patrick maybe came from there. Again, I've not been able to locate a marriage between Patrick Burns and Mary Carroll in Irish records.

An interesting thing in the 1901 census is that Mary Burns (nee Carroll) has a place of birth as Dover, Kent. All other census records show her as being born in Ireland. I haven't located a birth in Dover, but does Dover sould a little bit like Drogheda - which is sometimes pronounced 'Drawda'?

Can you link your Burns line to mine?

Chris.

[katherinem]

Hi,

I am afraid I just have more questions   I am guessing that you haven't found Isabella or Dewhurst in the 1861 census.  Do you have any idea about James Park born c1862 in Kendal, Westmoreland, whom is showing as son of John Park on the 1871 census?  This of course is prior to his marriage to Isabella, did he show as a Widower on the marriage cert, or could this possibly be another child of Isabella's?
Do you think that Mary Bilsberry on the 1851 census is Isabella's mother?  I found the birth of Sarah Ann born c1847 on freebmd, it may be worthwhile getting a copy of the birth cert to find the mothers maiden name.
I have been trying to track Isabella on the censuses to try and pin down her birth place, so far I have Skerton (1851), Lancaster (1871), and Ulverston (1881).  What was her second married name?
The last question is; what was John Park's occupation on the marriage cert, it might help to find him on the 1861 census.
Kath

[acorngen]

Rob,

Yes, I will obtain the birth certificate of Margaret Ann Miller, but it might well raise more questions than it answers, if pastexperience is anything to go by.

My maternal grandfather was Edward Burns of Ulverston. I've been able to trace the Burns line back to his grandfather, but then like you, came up against a brick wall - that wall being Ireland. According to census returns Patrick Burns was born in Ireland in 1842. He emigrated to Liverpool some time before 1866. He may have been in Liverpool in 1861 - there are Patrick Burns' listed, but I don't know which, if any, is him. His wife, Mary Carroll, was also born in Ireland. I have found no trace of their wedding in English records, so maybe they married in Ireland before emigrating. One of his sons returned to Ireland and married in Drogheda, so I wonder if Patrick maybe came from there. Again, I've not been able to locate a marriage between Patrick Burns and Mary Carroll in Irish records.

An interesting thing in the 1901 census is that Mary Burns (nee Carroll) has a place of birth as Dover, Kent. All other census records show her as being born in Ireland. I haven't located a birth in Dover, but does Dover sould a little bit like Drogheda - which is sometimes pronounced 'Drawda'?

Can you link your Burns line to mine?

Chris.

My BURNS line is split in two places with each line not meeting until my mum and dad married in 1968.  The first is from Leeds, HUnslet to be more precise and this is where my Grandfather was born.  His father was born in 1892 but I am unable to prove beyond doubt where, but I suspect from the 1901 census it was in Staffordshire.  Oh the 1921 can't be released soon enough.

My other line which comes down my mothers fathers line were in Workington Cumberland.  Robert HARRISON married Margaret BURNS and they married 6th Sept 1817 in Muncaster.  However that said I am as yet not 100 per cent sure of this marriage as I cannot find a baptism of my GGG Grandmother Elizaneth HARRISON to confirm her mothers name and the earliest available census doesn't have her at home neither.  All I have to go on is a family tree compiled by my american cousin which she built from the family history her father William BALL wrote.  He died in 1988 aged 94 and was the grandson of Elizabeth and he said his great grandmother was a BURNS prior to marrying into the HARRISON line.  His own mother according to Williams daughter Margarette who is still living today and in her 70's hated the Irish so I don't think Margaret BURNS came from Ireland but who knows

Rob