Author Topic: two People similar names  (Read 6366 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 28 May 06 22:54 BST (UK) »
Jean

I've got double vision now, it's a pain that you have couples with the same names so inter-twinned!

I've viewed a few more certs. This is what I can make out:

1. The James in Glasgow who married Betsy McNicol was certainly the son of a William Low and Jane Peters. Both Betsy and James show an Angus birth place, in James's case, as you stated St Vigeans, in their census returns. His age in the censuses and death match that also of the James born in 1824 to William and Jane Peter. Betsy, his wife, did die in 1865 and he remarried Mary Grant in 1866 in Anderston, Glasgow. James died in 1894.

2. In respect of James and Betsy's marriage, the date you have on one of their children's birth cert. seems too close to that on the IGI not to be theirs. You have 01 Oct 1848, the IGI shows 01 Oct 1849.

2. Bad luck (again!) with names. That second couple James and Betsy in Angus have muddied the water in respect of what children your James had. This is the main problem when relying solely on the IGI for your data.

Having looked at the 1851/61 Censuses, I think these are the children they had:

1. JESSIE WATSON LOW Birth: 25 JAN 1850 Christening: 06 FEB 1850 Saint Vigeans, Angus, Scotland (shows in the 1851 census in St Vigeans but not in the 1861 census so may have died)
2. DAVID FERRIER LOW Birth: 18 DEC 1851 Christening: 01 JAN 1852 Saint Vigeans, Angus, Scotland (shows in the 1861 census in Glasgow)
3. WILLIAM born c. 1853/4 (age 7 in the 1861 Census shows as born in Glasgow)
4. JOHN COUTTS LOW Birth: 27 APR 1856 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland (I think he may have died, doesn't show in the 1861 census)
5. JAMES LOWE Birth: 11 MAR 1858 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
6. ROBERT ADAMSON LOW  Birth: 06 JUL 1860 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland   
7. JOHN ANDERSON LOW Birth: 21 JAN 1863 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
8. THOMAS LOWE Birth: 06 MAR 1865 Anderston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland


So that's all I have been able to fill out. You have the death cert for Jane Peter, with the death reported by her husband Willliam so it's likely that he certainly would know the name of her parents.

You also have from Isles the 1841 Census where the children seem to match the entries on IGI for parents William and Jane. You also have Ann Nicol living with the family in 1841.

Jane Peter was consistent in her birth place being Inverkeilor. There are no births for a Jane showing there to those parents on IGI which is a pity. Using the batch code on IGI for Inverkeilor I checked for other births around 1800s for surname Peter. There were a couple called Andrew Peter and Elspet Nicoll having children there at that time. If only Elspet had been Ann! That's the only thing close.

Monica

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline AMBLY

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 28 May 06 23:02 BST (UK) »
Well - let this thread be a lesson on the genealogist's mantra :   
verify, verify verify!

Jean - I see you are new to Rootschat, so belatedly let me Welcome you  ;D
On Rootschat you will find many people - and indeed I think many such have  found you on this topic -  with broad knowledge, specialised knowledge, tons of experience and most of all a generous spirit in helping others (sometimes, I might add, spending a pound or two  to do so).

If Monica has straigntened your path, absolutely well done! Monica that was some sleuthing - and well spotted! But -  forget not, JAP's information and advice was equally as correct and important and should be acknowledged as such.

Quote from j.tomi :
Quote
does this help you with making you understand a bit better!
Jean, If you had posted the full information right from the start, or when you were first asked for it - it would have been much easier for us to understand right away!

Throughout this thread you will note we have been asking you specific questions which you have not answered by return. We are not asking to be nosey! We are asking because this is how it works -  something has not gelled for us, and the answer to the question may help us help you! So please remember to specifically answer questions made to you and  - be open to answers  you do not like the sound of just because it upsets a pre-concieved idea!.

And it has to be said, the tone of your posts, like the quote above and  whether you meant to or not, seemed to be inferring we were all dimwits for not "getting it" !     I'm sure you did not meant that, but what people percieve is important and if you want Rootschat to be a good experience , you might want to consider how you're  coming across ( People won't help if they think you are rude).

Now: just say you had been on the right path all along - and you  haven't yet concluded if you were or not as it still has to be verified one way or the other  - but say you wereeverything you were being told about LOW/PETERS/NICOL/.FERRIER in regards to there probably not being two couples of the same name etc etc ,  was good information and good common sense - borne of much knowledge. And no, this fact is not negated just because there does appear to be two James LOW & Betsy NICOLS  ;D :P ;D

The biggest lesson here, is NOT to jump back through the generations (so easy to be tempted with the availibility of SP and Census) without first being absolutely sure you have the correct data for  the present generation you are working on.

There is so much we could say about what you should have done!  I guess one basic rule:  is to try and verify a single piece of information from more than one source.  For eg, sometimes, this means tracing a sibling to see if their data about parents etc is the same....The way you tell it, you found a marriage and leapt to an entry on 1861 Census where you made an assumption and leapt straight back even further, possibly now we think, to the entirely wrong line.  My immediate response to the marriage of Robert would have included:  WHo were marriage Witness (investigate them? What about the 1881 & 1871 Census, even the 1891 before the 1861!!

One last wee tip, Jean:
Please punctuate your messages, and as per Genealogy conventions, put all the surnames in CAPITAL letters - it makes things much easier to read and the CAPITALS ensures we do not make mistakes with place names or middle names.


Onward and Upward!  [/color]
I suggest you now:
Post us FULL details of the marriage cert of Robert - including the names of the witness!
Details from his Death cert!
What do you KNOW about YOUR  Robert? What were names of all his children?
Have you seen him with a middle name anywhere?
Where was he in Census 1881 before he married? 1891? 1901 - post as much as you can - too much is way better than too little!

All  best wishes and good luck
AMBLY


edit: I wrote this before Monica's last post - and posted it just about the same time!
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline JAP

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #20 on: Monday 29 May 06 02:13 BST (UK) »
...  There is also a death of a Betsy McNicol in 1865 in Bridgeton, Glasgow City (on the year that son Thomas was born if we have the same Betsy). Her age is unrecorded so it was probably illegible on the cert and has not been indexed.  ...

Monica, between 1855 and 1865, age at death was not recorded in the index -  despite being present on the actual certificate.  SP started out using that original index but is slowly adding age at death to the index for the years where it is missing.  So Betsy's age is likely to be on the actual certificate.

Regards,

JAP   

Offline JAP

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #21 on: Monday 29 May 06 03:47 BST (UK) »
All,

Yes, I had noticed the two couples named James LOW(E) and Elizabeth/Betty/Betsy MCNICOL(L) and the two sets of ('overlapping') children but had decided first to concentrate on disposing of the "other" Jane PETER.

'Hasten slowly', 'one step at a time', etc ...  ;)

However, as we have now moved on to this matter, I will just add a couple more pieces of information which I had noticed.

* The IGI (inexplicably) does not combine the spellings MCNICOL and MCNICOLL.

*There are two IGI records (extracted) for marriages of couples with the relevant names.
- James LOW married Betty MCNICOLL, 14 Nov 1847, Kirriemuir Angus
- James LOW married Betsy MCNICOL, 1 Oct 1849, St Vigeans Angus

And yes, it does seem that the first couple is the pair who stayed in Kirrimuir and had known children there from 1847 to 1861 (not including a Robert).

And yes, it does seem that the second couple had two children (1850 and 1851) in St Vigeans and then moved to Glasgow where they had further children (including a Robert).  And it does seem that these are Jean's people.

However, just so there is no possibility of further confusion, it would be good to see the trail set out from the known to the unknown with full details from relevant marriage and death certificates and from censuses.

Kind regards,

JAP
PS: Should the surname of James's second wife be GIBSON?




Offline j.tomi

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #22 on: Monday 29 May 06 06:22 BST (UK) »
Hi JAP
from the known to the unknown
My Grandfather James Lowe
MY G.Grandfather Robert Lowe Married Anne Hamilton Bridgeton 1883
My G.G.Grandfather James Lowe Blacksmith And Wife Elizabeth McNicol taken from Roberts Death Entry 1922
1891 Census James Lowe age 65 wife Mary Neice bessie?
1881 Census James Low Wife Mary Neice Betsy
1871 Census  James Low Wife Mary sons William,James,Robert,John also John Docherty stated as son must be Mary,s son
1861 Census James Lowe wife Elizabeth son's William,David,James,Robert
1851 Census James Low wife Betsy Daughter Jessie
1894 Death entry James Low registered by son William states two wives one Elizabeth Mcnicol and two Mary I cannot make out her surname James Parents stated as William Low and Jean Low Nee Peter
This is where the trail starts to go adrift
birth entry James low states parents William Low Jane Peter 1824

William Low born 1798 parents Thomas Low Magdalen Scott
this is all confirmed findings
then i found a marriage entry William Low Jane Peter 1822
Birth Entry Jane Peter born 1796 parents John Peter And Jane Ferrier
this i thought was correct until i found Jean Peter;s Death entry 1872 age 73 registered by husband William parents Andrew Low And Anne Peter nee Nicoll
this is where it all gets confusing
thank you for your time and effort hope this explains where i think i went wrong and if you can help me get back on the right track i would be most grateful
regards
Jean

Offline JAP

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #23 on: Monday 29 May 06 07:25 BST (UK) »
Dear Jean,

The only reason I queried the surname of James's second wife was because Monica mentioned a re-marriage to a Mary GRANT in 1866 in Anderston.  I couldn't find that in the IGI or in a free search on ScotlandsPeople.  However I could find (in both) just one marriage of a James LOW(E) to a Mary in 1866 in Anderston - but with Mary's surname as GIBSON.  So I guessed that it was just a wee typo in Monica's post.  Monica will be able to confirm that - or not as the case may be.

Monica has (very kindly indeed) viewed (i.e. purchased) certificates and censuses in order to help you.  I guess that she will probably be able to fill in more of the details of the "known to unknown" path so that it will all be crystal clear.  And then perhaps you will be able to fill in any remaining missing information.  And this might help in showing you the sort of information which it would be helpful to provide when you post queries in future.

It doesn't seem that you went wrong - just that you got a bit confused  ;)

You got back as far as the marriage of William LOW and Jean PETER in 1822 in Inverkeilor - and that seems to be right.  But then you went looking for the birth of a Jane/Jean PETER and could find only one Jane/Jean PETER born around the right time - the 1796 daughter of John PETER and Jane FERRIER.  So it seems that you decided she must be the Jane PETER who married William LOW; a very dangerous assumption to make! - and, in the event, it turned out to be a totally wrong assumption!

When you got the death certificate for the Jean PETER who had married William LOW you learned that her parents were actually Andrew PETER and Ann NICOLL.  At that stage you should have just forgotten all about Jane/Jean, daughter of John PETER and Jane FERRIER.  But you didn't seem to want to let go of the wrong Jane/Jean and that's where things got confused.  Once you forget about the wrong Jane/Jean, there's no longer any confusion  :D

Good luck,

JAP
 

Offline j.tomi

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #24 on: Monday 29 May 06 09:04 BST (UK) »
Hi Jap
thank you very much for all hthe help you have given
i'm much more informed now by this and hope i wont get too confused in the future
again thank you very much
regards
Jean

Offline MonicaL

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #25 on: Monday 29 May 06 10:24 BST (UK) »
James Low's second wife, 1866 marriage, was Mary GIBSON (double vision affecting my typing!).

Monica

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Offline j.tomi

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Re: two People similar names
« Reply #26 on: Monday 29 May 06 10:37 BST (UK) »
Hi Monica
thank you very much will look into this now and hope i can keep on the right track
many thanks for all your effort
regards
Jean