Author Topic: Carry on Eliza  (Read 1705 times)

Offline PaulaToo

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Me 'n Gerry
    • View Profile
Carry on Eliza
« on: Saturday 24 June 06 11:06 BST (UK) »
As threatened yesterday, let me introduce you to Eliza Ann Smith, who is unfortunately, my Great Grandmother.
With the name Smith, you would think that was bad enough, but there you would be oh so wrong. Smith was no problem at all. The problem is, Eliza+?=Gran Harriet, and if you can solve that one....

birth cert 1840
Elliza Ann Smith, Southsea, father Thomas Richard Smith, labourer, mother Mary Ann Byles.

1841 census
At home in Silver St. Portsea with Thomas Smith, labourer, mother Mary, one brother and three sisters.

1851 census
Moved to Blenheim St. Portsea, family about the same.

marriage cert 1
All Saints Church Portsea, June 1858
Henry Moore, carpenter, father Henry Moore, carpenter
Eliza Ann Smith, father Thomas Richard Smith, inspector of nuisances.

birth cert 1860
George Edward Moore, father Henry Moore,corporal 1st Royals, mother Eliza Ann Smith. birth registered by Eliza Ann.

1861 census
Back with father and mother at 8 Cottage Lane, Landport.
Thomas R Smith, labourer(nightman)
Eliza Ann Moore, soldier's wife(private)
George A Moore, GrSon

George died when he was about five years old. I do not have the certificate, but I do have the ref. number.

birth cert 1862
Walter George Harmsworth Moore, no father, mother Eliza Moore.

birth cert 1864
Eliza Ellen Harmsworth Moore, father William Walter Harmsworth Moore, plasterer, mother Eliza Ellen Moore, formaly Smith.

birth cert 1866
HARRIET WEBB MOORE, no father, mother Eliza Moore.

Somewhere between 1866 and 1871 Elliza moves to Reading, though heaven alone knows why, and has another baby called Emily.
I can find no B M D for this child, but she is on the next census where the family has been reinvented.

1871 census
5 Union Ter, Reading, Berkshire.
William Challis, plasterer, age 31, born Winchester(you try finding him there)
Eliza, wife, born Portsmouth
Walter, son, born Portsmouth
Elenor, daughter, born Portsmouth
Harriet, daughter, born Portsmouth
Emily, daughter, age 3, born Reading.

May 6th 1874 Job Lot Christening, St Giles, Reading.
Walter William Moore, age 12
Eliza Ann Moore, age 11
Harriet Charlotte Moore, age 10
Emily Louisa Moore, age 7

marriage cert 2
1879
Samuel Wicks, age 29, labourer, father George Wicks, labourer
Eliza Ann Moore, widow, age 35, father Thomas Richard Smith, Inspector of Nuisances.
one of the witnesses is Walter William Moore, the son.

1881 census
Family at 5 Mill Lane Reading,
Sam and Eliza Wicks, but the children still keep the name Moore.

1885 Walter George Harmsworth Moore, father Henry Edward Moore, carpenter, (deceased)marries Louisa Baker

1886 Eliza Annie Moore, father Henry Edward Moore, carpenter(deceased) marries John Arthur Hughes
one of the witnesses Walter George Moore

1891 cesus
Sam and Eliza are at White Lion Yard.
My Grandmother Harriet is in Basingstoke, busily producing children with William Stevens Mathias. They claim to be married.

1892 Walter George dies, age 29, of valvular heart desease.

1901 census
Sam and Eliza at 29 Percy Place, Reading

Harriet back in town with William(still producing, but have not yet got round to my mother)

1906
Eliza Ann dies of abdominal cancer, still at Percy Place with Sam.

Oh, and Harriet did marry William, eventually, 1908, about 18 months after her mother died. They had seven children by then.

On her wedding certificate Harriet gives her father as GEORGE MOORE, SOLDIER.

So what was going on? Why was Gran Harriet different.
It's a jumble of soldiers, carpenters, plasterers and names.

If I've made any mistakes, I'll appologise in advance, the whole affair makes my eyes go crossed.

I'll also thank you for your patience in reading the whole saga, and hope that you can help solve the problem,
Eliza+?=Harriet
Bartlett/Henley on Thames
Caponhurst/Buckinghamshire and?
Denchfield/North Marston/Bucks
Webb/Winchester
Mathias/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
John/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
Smith/Portsmouth/Portsea
Purchas/Bucks and?
Olliffe/Bucks

Offline nettle

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 24 June 06 11:33 BST (UK) »
what a fascinating puzzle - unfortunately one that may have no definitive solution but - the sort of thing i love about family history.

a few quick thoughts are:
i) could William Challis acually be William Walter Harmsworth (without the Moore). Moore could have been added for the convenence of the childs birth certificate.
ii) this same William could be the natural father of Harriet - but of course nothing on the b.c.
iii) could Harriet's middle name of Webb suggest a different father - if indeed Eliza did eventually settle down with this Harmsworth then more likley that Harriets father is same William. But would be good to link the name Webb with him in some way.

These are just my initial thoughts - they are probably not new to you perhaps..........

Nettle

Offline nettle

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 24 June 06 12:11 BST (UK) »
you'll like this - on the 1861 census in Winchester:

Calais William Webb - age 22 PLASTERER , born Winchester son of
Calais William Webb - age 59, green grocer
Charlotte Webb - age 48

surely some connection?

Oh what a Webb we weave................ (sorry couldnt resist that!)

Nettle

Offline nettle

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 24 June 06 12:24 BST (UK) »
This looks like Harriet's father to me which of course gives you your family line if true. As to whether its the same father as her older siblings that looks less likely to me. Presumably the same father as Emily though - if you can find the b.c to check.

Regards

Nettle.


Offline PaulaToo

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Me 'n Gerry
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 24 June 06 13:02 BST (UK) »
You've been busy, nettle, thank you so much.
You've found the chappie who was christened Callas William Webb a darned sight faster than I did.
Yes, I think he was the one who registered Eliza Ellen, and reinvented the family in Reading.
What were they up to though?

With Gran Harriet being born Harriet Webb Moore, I could accept that, only why, of all the children has she got to be a little rebel, and have her father down on her wedding cert, as George Moore, soldier. The other two tow the Henry Edward Moore, carpenter line.

And why, all of a sudden in 1860, when George is born, does Henry change from being a carpenter into being a corporal in the 1st Royals. It looks as though he has been demoted though by 1861 census, because he is only a private.

Eliza seems to have a fettish about the name George, but her father is Thomas, so she's not naming him after her father, and if husband was Henry, they are not naming him after dad.
then up comes Gran Harriet who claims her father was George.......

My mother always wished that she knew what had happened, but she told me it would be difficult to trace back, because Eliza had been married twice, and 'there was something about an Irish Guardsman.'
Well, the Irish Guards as such, had not come into being by then, but there were the (not 1st Royals but) 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards.

It's just such a mystery.
Oh, and by the by, I've got the census returns for Eliza, plus a load of other information I have thrown in what I call the 'paper the barn' box. Never know, I could have the answer in there are not know it yet.
Oh very funny...eh, I think!
Bartlett/Henley on Thames
Caponhurst/Buckinghamshire and?
Denchfield/North Marston/Bucks
Webb/Winchester
Mathias/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
John/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
Smith/Portsmouth/Portsea
Purchas/Bucks and?
Olliffe/Bucks

Offline nettle

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 24 June 06 13:10 BST (UK) »
Looks like the name is Challis (Callis) William Webb - I have found the father on the 1871 still in Winchester with this name. Could even be that the surname being given as Challis on the 1871 census was just a transcribers error all along (I have seen similar).

PS Just seen your reply - suggests that Harriet didnt know her true father - easily a possibility. Although its still strange.

Cant see William Webb's birth on freebmd for definite - although there is at least one possibility.

I did spot a William Callis Webb getting married in Winchester in 1904 - could be a nephew of your William.

Regards

Nettle.

Offline PaulaToo

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Me 'n Gerry
    • View Profile
Re: Carry on Eliza
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 24 June 06 13:50 BST (UK) »
It is a little bit odd, isn't it.
Somehow it seems as though Eliza Ann was living two lives, one with Henry a carpenter, the problem with him is it's one of those wedding certs that give the age as 'full' for both so we've no cle as to how old he was, but we know Eliza was not 'full' she was only eighteen, cheeky monkey.
I can find no trace of a Henry Moore, carpenter, dad Henry Moore, carpenter who would be about the age to marry then.
I'm wondering all sorts of things like, is he a real person, or was he George Moore, soldier, who bunked off and married without telling the regement, and used dad's name and carpenter as an alias.
It's got me so confused, it's nice to have a fresh head to go through it all again with me.
Thank you nettle, you're a pal.
Bartlett/Henley on Thames
Caponhurst/Buckinghamshire and?
Denchfield/North Marston/Bucks
Webb/Winchester
Mathias/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
John/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
Smith/Portsmouth/Portsea
Purchas/Bucks and?
Olliffe/Bucks