Mary Laidler - Missing Years

[alisporter]

I am trying to locate Mary Laidler's missing years!

The only census she appears on is the 1861 census, where she is listed as living at 6 Chapel Lane, Newcastle. Her birth place is given as Talking Tarn, Cumberland.

I have the birth certificate for her daughter Mary Jane in 1852. There she was still living in Newcastle and appears to have been a single mum, as no maiden name is listed, or father!

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[AMBLY]

Hi alisporter

"Talking Tarn" is actually "Talkin Tarn" which is apparently  2 miles Sth of Brampton:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/walkthroughtime/

I looked at the 1861 Census you mention -  which gives Mary the mother as born around 1824. 

The following on the IGI is a possible for her:
Mary  LAIDLER  chr: 18 Jan 1824   in Hayton By Brampton, Cumberland,
Mother: Eleanor LAIDLER  , father not stated (on iGI).

Mary also had another daughter besides Mary Jane - an Ellen E born Newcastle around 1850 which appears to tie in with this FREEBMD:
Births Jun  Qtr 1849 in Newcastle T Ref: V25 P448
Ellen Elizabeth LAIDLER
It may be worth getting this cert too to see what clues it may have - esp. regarding the address of where she was born - might be possible to find it in 1851 Census.

So , looking for Mary b 1824 and Ellen E b 1850 on Census 1851

When did Mary Jane b 1852 marry? Do you know anything more abt Ellen E?

Cheers
AMBLY

[alisporter]

Thanks Ambly,

That's a lot of information.

I have Mary Jane's wedding certificate. On it she names her father as John Laidler, Joiner. I think I have found him on the 1851 census in Westgate Street Newcastle, but these Laidlers are from Eglingham/Wooler, Northumberland.

I can see another Laidler from Talkin in Blenkinsopp in 1851, but no trace of Mary there.

I shall order the birth certificate for Ellen Elizabeth and try and find out more on Eleanor (another single Mum).

Thanks again.

[Valda]

If Mary Laidler was unmarried it is unlikely Mary Jane had a father with the surname Laidler. Illegitimate people like Mary Jane on their marriage did not broadcast their illegitimacy unless they had to, because they were marrying in a place where they were known for instance. Otherwise they ususally gave a father's surname which was the same as their own and if they knew their father's first name and occupation they might give that, or it could be the name and occupation of a man within their extended family such as a later step father.

Regards

Valda

[alisporter]

Thanks Valda.

John Laidler-the-Joiner's sister was married to The Police Inspector at Prudhoe, and Mary Jane's daughter eventually married a police sergeant, so perhaps you are right, to preserve her status she named him as her father, but he was just a relative. I wish I could see how it all fits together. Wooler seems a long way from Talkin Tarn.

[Valda]

I think the police connection is probably just a coincidence and really a bit tenous. Different people with the same surname (and in this case it wasn't even the same surname) marry police officers.
What reason other than the surname have you got for suspecting any Laidlers in Newcastle in 1851 (28) were any connection to Mary born in Cumberland, who may just gone to a city like Newcastle to seek a postion as a servant?

Regards

Valda

[alisporter]

Mary Jane was born in Newcastle in 1852, I know alot about her. She married a John Dixon and their daughter married a police sergeant.

Her marriage certificate names John Laidler Joiner as her father and as I say, I've located him and his sister married a Police Inspector. This may explain how My Dorothy Dixon was introduced to the Police Sergeant's son (an Engineer), i.e. her mother's Aunt, or Aunt if John was her step-dad, was married to the Inspector.

Mary Jane's natural mother is the mystery, as not only does she appear to be a single mum, but she only seems to appear on one census - 1861, where she states Talkin Tarn as her birthplace.

So, it seems unlikely that she happened to meet another Laidler to father her child, although not impossible I suppose. I can only assume that John Laidler from Wooler/Eglingham was a relative?

[Valda]

Mary Jane since was illegitimate (her mother was unmarried on the 1861 census) on her marriage gave her father the same surname as herself. John is the most common personal name. I have a man who married four times and chose John once and William once. On the occasion he was known he gave no father's name and on his first attempt he gave Miles - his mother much later had married a John Miles. He gave various common occupations to the three fathers he named.

If Mary Jane did know who her father was and she was giving details about him on her marriage, then logically he was John somebody (but not Laidler) who was a joiner.

Have you obtained Mary Jane's birth certificate to see what details if any her mother gave about her father on her birth and the address she was living at? Mary and her two daughters could very well have been living with the father in Newcastle, but all known in their everyday lives in his surname.

Unfortunately you have no actually evidence that John Laidler the joiner you have found on the censuses has any connection to Mary Jane. I appreciate that having invested some effort in researching his family means that if at all possible you want there to be a connection between the two families, but as you say you are assuming there is a connection without any further actual evidence to back it up . Assume and presume are very dangerous in family history research and lead all of us to a lot of dead ends, coincidences and red herrings.

I would suggest contacting the Cumbria Record Office to see whether you can find out any more about the 1824 baptism for Mary Laidler. As she was born illegitimately there may be other records for her such as a 'Bastardy order' which would give further details about her mother and her father.

Regards

Valda

[AMBLY]

Hi again

A thought also, was that Mary LAIDLER not being a young girl when she had Ellen E  or Mary Jane - she was in her mid to late 20's - it is also possible she was a widow who had illigitimate children (have seen this often occur too!) and therefore in that way not a born LAIDLER....

I agree with everything Valda has said & suggested; the fact she is not found on a Census apart from 1861 - and I can't find Ellen either, in 1851 - does suggest there is a bit more than meets the eye!

If people are covering their tracks in this way, ie: to avoid "scandal" or preserve "pride", "dignity", one will often find scraps of truth are woven with fibs! The key is - what is the fib, and what is the truth 

Cheers
AMBLY