Mystery

[MickMac]

My Great Granfather's name was James Horsley (see below) Born 1890 in Melbourne, Derbyshire.

His Fathers name was John Horsley, born 1867 also in Melbourne Derbyshire. This is all on the 1891 and 1901 census's.

Now the mystery - On the 1871 census, I find John Horsley of Melbourne Born 1867 describes as the son of a servant, Sarah Ann Pass (unmarried) . On the 1881 he's named as John Pass, Scholar. In both cases, he's living in the houshold of Ann Horsley, the widow of James Horsley.

Am I mixing up my John Horsley's or could John Pass and John Horsley be the same person?

Mick

[trish251]

Hi Mick

Have you found a birth registration in one or both names? You may need a certificate to resolve the issue. Without any other information, it could appear  that John born 1867 may be the son of Sarah Ann Pass and James Horsley - the couple not being married.

Trish

[PrueM]

Hi Mick,
On the 1871, the actual page lists Sarah Ann PASS, and then underneath her, John "do", meaning his surname is PASS as well.  The transcription I checked had him as John HORSLEY, which is incorrect.
Hope that helps

Prue

[trish251]

There is a birth for a John Pass in Shardlow district - which includes Melbourne - in Jun Qtr 1866 and a John Thomas Pass in Mar Qtr 1868 (same district). These are from FreeBDM


There is nothing on FreeBDM for John Horsley, in 1867 +/- 2 years - FreeBDM is virtually complete for 1866/67 but not 100%. 1868 is less than 50% complete. You could search the complete images for these years to check for other possibilities.

Trish

[Necromancer]

Redundant post deleted and slow keyboard replaced   

[trish251]

Noting what Prue has said - they may be two different people, but you will need to find a birth record in the name of Horsely to prove this. Whether the certificate for the name Pass would include the father? I do not know the rules in England - although I may have read if the father consents/is present he may be on the certificate. Someone else may have better information on this.

Trish

PS Scropton - you gave more details that I did - put it back     

[MickMac]

Thanks for all the help. I've been looking through the Parish records and everything. I can't find John Horsley born Melbourne 1867 anywhere. Only John Pass. John Pass doesn't appear after 1881 and he was living in the Horsley household.

I probably need a birth certificate. My working hypothesis is that Sarah Pass was the servant of Ann Horsley who had a son, William of a similar age to Sarah.

The illegitimate child John could be the son of William Horsley and later he adopted his fathers name.

I've been caught out by guesses before however 

[trish251]

Hi Mick

The marriage certificate for John may give a first name for his father - but whether it would be correct?

good luck with the search

Trish

[MickMac]

I've found marriage Records for John Thomas Pass and John Pass.

JT Pass married Agnes and is on the 1891 census.

John Pass married Alice Collier in 1885. I can't find John and Alice Pass on the 1891 Census but I can find John and Alice Horsley!

I can find a birth registration for Ethel Maud Pass in late 1885 and John & Alice's eldest daughter is called ... Ethel Maud.

I think I need some birth and marriage certificates. does anyone know if Marriage certificates from that era had parental details on them?