Descendants of Charles Gideon WINTER?

[fyremoon]

Jenn, My William didn't really come out here, well he did but not to live... I don't think...

He was a draper in Portobello Road, London.  His second son Edward, my GGf, came out here and settled.  I still haven't been able to find when and from where he came, but he appears in london on the 1891 census, age 14,  after his mother had passed away.  Next I know of him is his marriage here in Sydney in 1910.  Family story has it that he didn't get along with his father's 2nd wife (who'd been their life-long housekeeper), or maybe it was his father he didn't get on with, and that he was sent off to school in France, and then given the choice to start a new life in Australia or somewhere else, maybe South America? africa?... something like that. 

Anyway, he came here, set up a gentleman's outfitter shop in Sydney, married, started a family, and had historical 'Redstone' or 'the Winter house' designed by Burleigh Griffin and built in Dundas. 

He brought his father William out here during the war apparently I still dont' know if William went back to England or lived out his days here.  I just had a brainwave and checked the BDM and there is a William Winter dying here, with the parents William and Sarah.  I wonder if it's him, I will check with my grandaunt when I next speak with her!  That would confirm this link too.  Sorry to babble on so much - sorry you asked? 

Leigh x

[tropicalj]

hello there
leigh

oh no  not sorry  I asked  after all it got you thinking and you may  have found william death

keep us posted please  it is a very interesting trail

regards jenn

[tropicalj]

hello there leigh

i see that william  has died at ryde  which   may  not  be your william  seeing as how  william  was married at chatswood  and he seems to be fairly well off ryde was a  rather poor suburb  back around  the  1910 mainly working class etc 

hard to say 

regards jenn

[fyremoon]

It was Edward who was married here, in 1910, in Lindfield (where his bride Greta lived).  By 1929, when this William on the index died, my Edward was living in Dundas, even though he hadn't build The Winter house yet (I think that was in the 1930s...)  that's relatively close to Ryde...  They had land and orchards there back then.  But who knows... can't wait to find out more! 

Leigh

[tropicalj]

hello there Leigh

I have found a death for FRANCES WINTER in Tasmania in 1890 at Launceston  aged 65  which ties in with  the letter of  Charles Gideon Winter  where he says his mother died when  he was about 24.
The Tasmanian index only goes to 1899,  thats the one I have so  cannot pick  up on the death of John Winter but still looking.

Also in the letter he says his Father died aged 96 but this was more like 86  and the mother Sarah  I found on the 1901  census living  with  one of the married daughters  in BRISTOL

She died that year aged 87  thats Sarah Matilda Winter who was born in  Wilver.Somerset
Another thing that is true  was a JOHN WINTER did win gold  in the 1948 Olympics in england  but  I could not find anything on him  the rev Charles Wwinter says  that  John junior had come to visit
but it also  says he thought  he was one of his brothers Daly??? 13 children  I have only found two  but that doesn't mean  anything.
Some of this information  may have been incorrectly typed in
on transcribing the letters typo errors  we all make them
plus  Charles Gideon  wrote this letter in 1949 so he was 82 but  i cannot find  him or the wife ADA resting place.
When the letter was written  he was in Busselton WA

I know Sue  loves a good cemetery chase


I hope  this  may  help  in you search  for  the relo  of Charles Gideon  Winter

still delving  deep
regards Jenn

ps  do you  belong to Genes Reunited there are three people there who  have listed william  born at brompton ralph somerset in their tree

[fyremoon]

Wow Jenn, what a bunch of info!  Thanks so much!  It's wonderful to have someone able to look things up.

That's interesting about Sarah M living in Bristol, because there's a bit of a connection there with my William, who I am presuming to be one of William and Sarah's sons for the time being, spent some time with an aunt in Bristol as a youngster, being apprentice.  Also, in a later census,he's with another aunt/uncle with a cousin who was born in Bristol.  Does it say the daughter's name? 

The more snippets of information I get, the more I think this is one and the same...

Oh, I haven't quite gotten my head around the Olympics John. I found some info on him, but I'm wondering which John it was... I'm thinking it couldn't have been Charles Gideon's son John, he would've been far too old in 1948... so maybe it was a grandson of Charles G.??  I haven't delved into that as yet, I'm still working on making too many connections to be coincidence between William and Sarah's family and my William.  I've emailed some of my family to see what they know, one doesn't know and the other hasn't replied yet.

And no I don't think I am a Genes Reunited member, it rings a bell tho, I'll go check up - thanks for the tip!

Thanks again for the info about Frances (I tried finding their marriage, and found one John Winter on the same page as a Frances Oriel, in Narberth, 1864... I'll keep digging)

Leigh x

[tropicalj]

hello there

well now  i did also  find frances oriel  when i put in just frances in the 1861 census she came up widow  grocer
now  on the 1871 census when john winter is married  he is a grocer and a cabinet maker and she is a grocer  so  I did think that it wasa bit more than a coincidence she is  bit older than  him  I will dig it out again and give you the details

but I did draw a blank trying to find the marriage.

Yes I do agree that John Winter has to be  Charles Gideon's grandson.

William Winter born 1813 died 1895 narbeth.

children born to this couple  incidently William (1814) is not with the family in 1841

Edward born 1834 not in wales
Benjamin       1835 not in wales
John               1836 wales
William            1840 tenby wales  birth last qtr 1839

on the 1851 wales census  neither john or william jnr are
there
Caroline born 1851
Joseph   born 1850  middle name rogers
Sarah     born 1844  becomes thomas mrd1881
Timothy  born 1841
Eliza       born  1846
Elizabeth born 1841  born elizabeth rogers winter
on the 1861 wales census
Charles born 1855
Eva       born 1859
Julia born 1847
Sophia born 1853

John is back home  but not william

Another interesting thing is timothy  is at home till 1891 wales census  but he ups and marries and changes occupation to a draper in 1901

regards jenn

[tropicalj]

Hello there Leigh

Sarah Matilda Winter was living  at 82 Stokes Croft, St.Paul, Bristol, Gloucterhsire not spelt right  with her daughter SaraH Thomas and husband and family  he is a druggist employer  son is a druggist also  damn  should have added them all for you no matter will do  that later
regards Jenn

[fyremoon]

Well all of those folks belong to Charles Gideon I'm certain.  I have those census returns from my other post on teh Somerset board Jenn, and yep they're the same... the only thing I don't know for sure is if the William on the 1841 census b. Tenby is in fact MY William - I think it's too much of a coincidence for there to be two William Winters b. abt 1840 in Tenby with father's name William...

The other thing of interest with some of the gaps in the census - I have the places where my William was in 1851 (he was with his aunt Sophie Rogers in Bristol) and in 1861 he was with his Aunt and Uncle Rossetter (sic) in Hammersmith.  My theory is that Sophie/a and Ruth Rossiter, are Sarah's sisters and that would mean that my William is Sarah's daughter.  I found a Sarah Matilda Rogers b. in Wiveliscombe... if I can somehow come across a marriage between Sarah Matilda Rogers and William Winter, I'll be set; lots adds up to this all being the same family.

If I'm right, I have no idea where Edward and Benjamin were born, I've tried looking in Somerset but haven't turned anything up yet (CGW says 'Uncle Edward ran away to the army and Uncle Ben ran away to the sea, so that's probably where they were on later censuses).  I have no idea at all what became of Caroline.  I see that Sarah married William Park Thomas in 1870, and is on the 1881 census visiting her parents with some of her children.  Timothy's the one who stayed home and became partner with his father - CGW talks of him in his letter too, saying that when he finally 'fell prey' to marriage, his wife took control of both he and his father and they both died not long after!

You noted that Elizabeth wasn't on the 1841 census, and I'm wondering about that, neither was her father.  Sarah and the 4 boys were at Crackwell St, St Mary Within, and I'm now wondering if they were just lodging there or something.  Where were Elizabeth and her dad that year?

I'm thinking John might have been off doing an apprenticeship somewhere in cabinetmaking in 1851 census... also with regards to John and Frances.. do you mean that Frances had been married before she married John?  I wonder then if Oriel's her maiden name... I was thinking she might have been a Morris since her relatives already in Australia were named Morris and a Wallace...

A few leads to keep me busy here!  If only the dishes and cooking and shopping and schoolwork and gardening and errands didn't need doing!

Leigh