St Andrews RC Newcastle - BLACK

[hazelmoore]

If any kind soul has the occasion to go to St Andrews RC Church in Newcastle I would be so grateful if they could find the names of the parents of Joseph BLACK born about 1797.  He married Mary Ann Lazarus/Ladzrie/Lazzari (also trancribed as Ladenie) in the same church 18.2.1822 but there are no parents names on the entry - just the witnesses, John Gulloway and Mary Ann Avery.  IGI suggests he was christened in 1797 at St Andrews when I had supposed he was born in 1804 in Wallsend - to Joseph Black and Ann Gaskin/Gascoigne.  I had always supposed that the Catholic 'era' started with his marriage to Mary Ann (she was the daughter of an Italian immigrant) but now I am stuck.  Can anyone help me?

Thank you very much in advance,

Hazel

[bill23]

There is a Joseph Black on the IGI batch numbers for Northumberland to parents Joseph Black and Ann Gascoyne think its Carville Wesleyan Church p000381.
b 12/12/1804 Chr 21/4/1805.
Bill.

[bill23]

Sorry meant to say Wallsend.
Bill.

[bill23]

I jumped in to soon I see that you have two Joseph Blacks and its parents of the first that you requested.
Good hunting Bill.

[Michael Dixon]

Hazel,

No need to go to St Andrew's RC to see the church records.

They are all on film in Tyne & Wear Archives, in Newcastle.

I have spent a lot of research time in those records and those of St Mary's RC church.

Some of my Gallaghers, catholics from Ireland, married in 1820s and later, in Newcastle.

But not in St Andrew's RC or St Mary's RC. They married in Anglican churches, but baptised their children in St Andrew's RC church.

This seemingly unusual behaviour was forced on them because English Law decreed that the only LEGAL  means of marriage for all was in the"established church of the land"

( Quakers and Jews were excluded from this "restriction" )

So Catholics ( and other "non-conformists" , e.g. Methodists)
had the choice...

marry in a church of a different faith,
 not marry, or
 marry outside of England.


Some crossed the border into Scotland to marry.

This law was removed in 1837 allowing Catholics (etc) to marry in their own church.

So your info that your couple married in St Andrew's RC church, caught my eye.

It brought to mind a church notice board in Newcastle, I pass most days...

The board states " The Oldest Church in this Town"

It is the Parish Church of St Andrew's.. Church of England.

Whether Joseph and Mary Ann were catholics, they were married in this C of E church.

I would normally have hedged my bets and said " they probably married in a C of E church"

The reason I am so sure, is that their marriage record ( at least an index containing it ) is on line.. 18 Feb 1822 MaryAnn's name written as LADZEE.

I hope I get this bit right... the web page is at
http://genuki.cs.ncl.net.ac.uk/Transcriptions/NBL/NSA1800.
html


When catholic marriages started the priests recorded lots of good info, not just the four parents of the spouses by there, but the parents whereabouts, in England, Ireland etc... some e.g. St Patrick's Felling, even recorded the maiden name of the mothers of the marrying couple.

I am looking at my transcriptions of RC baptisms in 1820s at St Andrew(RC) and St Mary(RC) this is what the priest recorded..

Name of child, date of birth, date of bapt, father's name and mother's including her maiden name, and the godparents.

Michael Dixon

[hazelmoore]

Thank you Bill and Michael.
Michael, what you have told me is very interesting.  I am sure however that Joseph and Mary Ann (it is Ladzrie on the Marriage Entry photocopy) were (or became) Catholics as all their children's Baptisms, Marriages etc., down to the present day, are Catholic - many of them having been celebrated in St Andrews RC!
I am curious to know if Joseph's parents were also Catholics - thus he is probably the 1797 entry - or not, in which case he could very well be the Wallsend 1804 entry! (Although he would have been married aged 18 and Dad a year later!)
Now my question is if anyone can access the Tyne & Wear Archives as I live in Italy and it's a bit far away!!?
Thank you for your interest,

Hazel

[Michael Dixon]

Hazel,

I was careful not to say whether they were catholics or not.

All I was saying is that they did not marry in a Catholic church.

They married in the "Church of England"

I regularly go to T&W Archives and would be pleased to look up your folk in church records.

They have records for St Andrew's... Bapts from 1778. Marriages from 1837.

St Mary's (now the cathedral) Bapts from 1844, Marriages from 1844..

(also burials).


A Catholic born in Wallsend in that era, would have been baptised in St Andrew's (RC) Newcastle (No RC Church in Wallsend until late 1800s.)

An Anglican born in Wallsend in that era, would have been baptised in Wallsend Parish ( C of E ) Church, unless the parents had moved into the city of Newcastle. Then the baptism could have been any of the five or so C of E parishes within the city.

Do you know the names, in sequence of the children of Joseph and Mary Ann ? This would give good clues to the names of Joseph's and M.A.'s parents ( i.e. first son and second dtr to be given names of his paternal grandparents )

Michael Dixon

[hazelmoore]

Hello Michael,

How kind of you to offer!  Yes I do know the names of their children :-
John Alexander b. 1.3.1823
Joseph              b. 19.7.1825
James               b. 4.9.1829
Sarah               b. 18.2.1832 all born in Newcastle

I do also have all the children of Joseph (who I am descended through) and James.

I understood that St. Andrews was 'the' RC church in Newcastle, so I assumed they were married in the Catholic Faith and I know all their kids had 'sponsors' at baptism.  I gather this is what we call GodParents!!  However Joseph was certainly not necessarily Catholic before the Marriage which makes the pinpointing of his parents more difficult

Mary Ann's parents were Paul Anthony Lazarus and Sarah Matley (they married in Manchester Cathedral in 2.12.1802)
- if you need any more details please let me know and thank you again for your very kind offer!

Hazel

[Michael Dixon]

Hazel,

I shall have a go in the next week.

I am not sure if I have been clear on the "St Andrew's" church thing.

There was/is at least two churches dedicated to St Andrew in Newcastle.

St Andrew's in Newgate was built in the C12th.

This will have been Roman Catholic in it's day, but after Henry VIII's Reformation, it became Church of England/Anglican.

It took a while for the revival of Roman Catholicism in England
(not helped by the Gunpowder Plot).

Newcastle's  first RC church was St Andrew's, in Worswick St. First worship in 1798 ( but no marriages).

In this era the term "parish" applied only to C of E.

Even today when I go into the Archives...the shelves, books or indexes labelled "Parish Records",  apply only to C of E.

Catholic records ( and Methodist's, etc,) are sometimes labelled "Other Church Records", or"Non-Conformist Church Records"


Although I am a geegee man, I would not bet on this,  but IGI contains mainly Parish/C of E records, and not many catholic records. So although St Andrew's Newcastle C of E records are likely to be on IGI, I am not sure whether St Andrew's Newcastle RC records are ?

Michael Dixon