Author Topic: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please  (Read 5374 times)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 09 December 23 07:55 GMT (UK) »
Wexflyer, following on from your previous help, I contacted my second cousin once removed who related a couple of family stories about my direct ancestor Thomas Joseph Healy and his brother Michael.

Apparently they hated the English, and were on the run from English soldiers for poaching and/or anti British activity when their mother told them to go to Australia. Another story was that they put someone down a well!  :o

I have looked at the BNA newspaper link and the NAI site but couldn’t see any mention of them which coukd mean I was doing something wrong, or they didn’t do enough wrong to get a mention (or weren’t caught). I wonder if it would have been covered in any local newspapers or you have any other sources or ideas on where I could search to find out more about these boys?

The Healy brothers arrived in Australia in 1884 so all this must have taken place prior to that.

This all leads me to think that the Jeremiah Healy who was tried and convicted in 1852 could well be the correct Jeremiah Healy, despite that one’s occupation of “Tailor”.

Thanks for any more help you can offer.  :)

Well, first off, the free 7 year vacations in the Antipodes ended (mostly) around 1853, so your two relatives, Darby's sons, would not have been able to avail of the offer - it had expired by their time. [And of course, they would have had to be caught to avail of the offer also]. So there is no chance of finding them in the NAI transportation database - over by their time. Even for Jeremiah himself, the one tried and imprisoned in 1852/53, it's effective end around that time that explains why he didn't actually get to cruise to Australia, but stayed in Ireland as a guest of Her Majesty instead.

The two sets of prison/court records I found for Jeremiah/Darby were:
Irish prison records - three records in 1852/53. Two in Wexford Gaol in 1852, one in Newgate Gaol in Dublin, in 1853, recording his transfer to Philipstown Gaol (modern Daingean) for the remainder of his sentence.
One Irish Petty Sessions record, in 1862 in New Ross. The one where the address was given as Irishtown, New Ross. Several other Healys in New Ross appear about the same time.
Living in Irishtown, if that was your Darby, was incompatible with being a farmer  - a farmer would not live in town with that address.

As for finding a newspaper record of the trial, that can be hit and miss. Sometimes the newspapers just said so many sentenced to transportation, so many to hang, etc. Sometimes more detailed reports. Also depends what is actually in the BNA archive for the period in question. For 1852 they seem to only have one Wexford paper - they have more than one at earlier and later periods.
Best thing might be to actually pull up the edition next after the trial date (which is in the prison records), and see if there is court report. i.e. don't rely on a search, but actually pull up the issue nearest in time. You can do that by selecting region and year.


BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Ruskie

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 09 December 23 22:17 GMT (UK) »
Thanks very much for the guidance and useful suggestions Wexflyer. I agree that city dwelling Darby/Jeremiah (a tailor) doesn’t tally well with my Darby/Jeremiah said to have been a farmer.

A change of occupation is possible, but would he be likely to go from a skilled occupation like a tailor to a farmer?

I need to find more evidence before claiming any of these Jeremiahs. I was hoping that Irishtown Jeremiah was mine, but I have my doubts.

Thanks again.

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 10 December 23 00:18 GMT (UK) »
It wasn't unusual in those days for tradesmen and small farmers to be double hatted. That is a small farmer could also be a tailor, carpenter, fisherman, or blacksmith. I know of multiple examples.
That said, the examples I know of were all in the country. I can't see how a townsman could double as a farmer.

So, you are left with unanswerables:
- Social promotion? (They lied on the Australian records)
- Jeremiah was from a farming background, but did not get the farm?
 - Different Jeremiah.
Hard to to tell.

One other comment - did you notice that on the Wexford Gaol record (have you located?), it says that that Jeremiah was originally from Mallow, Co. Cork. Must have moved to Co. Wexford at some point.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline tuttycotton

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 10 December 23 14:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi there my Ryan family were from Church Lane New Ross unfortunately I’m not able to go back too far.

Kind regards


Offline Ruskie

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #31 on: Monday 11 December 23 21:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi there my Ryan family were from Church Lane New Ross unfortunately I’m not able to go back too far.

Kind regards

I suggest that you take a DNA test. I checked a couple of my matches yesterday and came across one with the surname Ryan from Wexford in their tree. I haven’t contacted him as yet.

Your known connection to the surname and place is a lot more recent than mine, so you might be able to find connections to people still living there who may have knowledge about the family.

If you do decide to go down this path, most recommend testing with Ancestry, but you do need an ongoing subscription to be able to see matches’ trees, though in my experience many don’t have trees, nor do they reply to messages, so don’t necessarily get too excited and expect a reply even if you have a close connection.


Offline Ruskie

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #32 on: Monday 11 December 23 22:45 GMT (UK) »
Wexflyer, I’m afraid I did not locate the Wexford Gaol record but thank you for letting me know that that Jeremiah came from Cork.

I have a couple of people in my tree who’ve changed occupations through their life, and notice a lot of people with public house or brewing type occupations also do other work such as farming.

I’m not sure if farming was a step up from being a Tailor, however it probably was if it implied he was a land owner.

On arrival a number of immigrants told the authorities what they thought they wanted to hear when it came to occupations, as some were more useful to the colony than others, and at various times different occupations were in demand. Fibs are always very possible.

As we are having difficulty researching this family my second cousin once removed believes that the only way to progress is to go to Ireland.

I’m not so sure because I thought that where records exist, a lot would be digitised and accessible online. Would you say that is the case, or would there be useful records only available if you visited in person?

Presumably it is like all digitisation and is a work in progress, with some areas and time frames covered better than others, but what else would there be in terms of records? I’m thinking that apart from census (none for the time frame for this family), Griffiths Valuation, bmd/parish records/ baptismal records, newspapers and the criminal and court records you mentioned, that would be about the extent of it?

Thanks again.  :)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 12 December 23 18:31 GMT (UK) »
Wexflyer, I’m afraid I did not locate the Wexford Gaol record but thank you for letting me know that that Jeremiah came from Cork.

I have a couple of people in my tree who’ve changed occupations through their life, and notice a lot of people with public house or brewing type occupations also do other work such as farming.

I’m not sure if farming was a step up from being a Tailor, however it probably was if it implied he was a land owner.

On arrival a number of immigrants told the authorities what they thought they wanted to hear when it came to occupations, as some were more useful to the colony than others, and at various times different occupations were in demand. Fibs are always very possible.

As we are having difficulty researching this family my second cousin once removed believes that the only way to progress is to go to Ireland.

I’m not so sure because I thought that where records exist, a lot would be digitised and accessible online. Would you say that is the case, or would there be useful records only available if you visited in person?

Presumably it is like all digitisation and is a work in progress, with some areas and time frames covered better than others, but what else would there be in terms of records? I’m thinking that apart from census (none for the time frame for this family), Griffiths Valuation, bmd/parish records/ baptismal records, newspapers and the criminal and court records you mentioned, that would be about the extent of it?

Thanks again.  :)

Quite a few points there!

First, as to occupation. This is just a guess, but I presume most emigrants to Australia went there to better themselves. To move up the social ladder. If your Dad was a tailor, did you want to go all the way to the Antipodes to be a tailor also? Probably not. You most probably wanted some - lots! - of all that vast expanse of land that they were giving away. And who were they more likely to give land to - someone with a farming background, or a townie? So, just a guess, but if you wanted to get a farm in Australia, was there an advantage to claiming a farming background?

As for records: Ireland is relatively good on digitizing what records have survived. That said, there are some that aren't available online. For example, the Darby Healy in Irishtown New Ross. The records of the Valuation Office in Dublin will show in which house he lived, and when, roughly he disappeared from the records - which is probably when he died. Should also show to whom the house then passed. Did it pass to one of his sons? When did they drop out of the records?

Then there are graveyards. Darby is must be buried locally in or near New Ross - is there a memorial? Lots still to be done on that.

But records are only one aspect. Is the objective to just add names and dates, or do you aim to have an understanding of where they lived, what conditions were like for them?
I am from Wexford and I know these places. That is invaluable to me in understanding the physical geography, distances, and circumstances in general.  For example, if you were to visit New Ross, where Darby Healy lived (one of the few known facts), then you would find:
the same streetscape he knew, many unchanged since medieval times, many of the same buildings, the same church that he and his family must have attended. There is a replica emigrant sailing ship docked on the quays in New Ross, as a museum ship to visit. You could visit the local graveyards - he and his wife must be buried in one. Visit the possible townlands in the vicinity of New Ross that we identified.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 12 December 23 19:09 GMT (UK) »
More to see than just New Ross, of course.
For example, can visit what was the Wexford County Gaol, in Wexford Town. Latterly the offices of Wexford County Council, now ?
http://irishantiquities.bravehost.com/wexford/wexford/wexfordgaol.html
This is where Jeremiah Healy was imprisoned in April 1852.

Note that sources can differ: while 1852 prison record says Jeremiah  was originally from Mallow, Co. Cork, 1853 says Wexford.

BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: HEALY bmd lookups and advice please
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 12 December 23 22:47 GMT (UK) »
It occurs to me that the Valuation Office records - which are not online - would be of more assistance to you than is usual.

First, they might help to determine if Darby Healy of New Ross is one and the same person as the Jeremiah Healy of the prison records. If Darby appeared in New Ross before Jeremiah was released from prison, then obviously they could not be the same person. On the other hand, if Darby appeared shortly after Jeremiah was released, then that would seem to support the idea that they were the same person. 

Second, you could trace what happened to the Jeremiah Healy of the townland of Rathpaudin, who appears in Griffiths Valuation. When did he appear, dissappear?
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area