William & Mary McDonald - Llanguicke

[jstomlin]

I have a few brick-walls on my wife's tree which I hope someone can help me with.

Her GG G'parents were William McDonald, who married Mary Thomas.

I can find them on the 1881 and 1891 census, but no further back.

1881 - RG 11 / 5348 Page 111 - House Number 232 - house next to Old School House in Rhos
William McDonald - age 36 - b. Swansea
Mary - age 35, b Cilybebyll
Kids - Ellen (16), Thomas (14), Hannah (10), Jayne (, Anne (6), Joyce (2) - all b Cilybebyll

1891 - RG 12 / 4469 Page 9a - House Number 160 in Rhos
William McDonald - age 47 - b. Swansea
Mary - age 46, b Cilybebyll
Kids - Jane (19), Anne (15), Margaret (9), Rosina (7) -  all b Cilybebyll

They married 17 Apr 1864 in Neath Register Office - he was living in Alltwen and she in Rhos.  His father is John McDonald (Railway labourer) and hers is Thomas Thomas (Coalminer), who was a witness at the wedding.

Can anyone shed any light going back further than 1881?

I have a possible match for 1861, but his father is listed as Denis McDonald, not John.

It would be much appreciated

Cheers  Jules

[osprey]

could this be them in 1871? Frankly, it doesn't look like McDonald, but they're next door to the same family - Mary's parents?   
Rhos Cot RG10/5439 folio 55 pg 42
William McDonnell head mar 29 engineer b. Llansamlet
Mary wife 25  b. Cillibebill
Elenor dau 7
Thomas son 5
John son 3
Hannah dau 2
William Lewis grandfather boarder widower occupation = old age b. Llanwyno, Carms
all children b. Cilybebyll

next door
Thomas Thomas head mar 56 collier b. Carms, Pencareg(?)
Joyce wife 56 b. Carms, Cynwill
Jane dau 16
William son 13
Letisa dau 6
all children b. Cilybebyll

1861 Rhos village RG9/4093 folio 80 pg 32
Thomas Thomas head mar collier b. Pencarreg
Joyce wife 45 b. Cinwell
Mary dau 16
David son 11 door keeper coalpit
Hannah dau 7
Jane dau 5
William son 3
all children b. Cilybebyll

think William Lewis's pob might be Llanwinio, Joyce's possibly Conwil either Elfed or Caio.

Off to look in Llansamlet for William.

[osprey]

I'm having no more luck than you with William's family. Denis McDonald and his family turn up every time and though they have a William of roughly the right age, I have my doubts. On the 2 census entries I've seen where William gives a more exact place of birth, he gives Llansamlet whereas Denis and family always have Llangyfelach for the children - close, but not quite. Also, on the marriage cert, father's occupation was railway labourer but Denis goes from copperman to labourer to copper smelter. Copper smelter to railway labourer in 3 years ? - doesn't seem right to me.
Can you find any of the Denis McDonald family after the 1861 census. I can't see marriages for Abigail or Dinah (tried the more unusual names). I can't see John or Denis on 1881 census - using the familysearch.org one as it's more forgiving on names like McDonald.

If you want to check them, here are the refs for Denis and family
1841 HO107/1419/3 folio 30 pg 20 (Deneus on Ancestry)
1851 HO107/2465 folio 231 pg 50
 
I've searched under mcd*, macd* mc d* and mac d*. Where is he?

[jstomlin]

Hiya
Thx for this.
Can't look until later as I'm off camping with kids for the weekend.
I have got Denis on 1861, but no later:

1861 - RG9; Piece: 4097; Folio: 33; Page: 63 House 216 - down as Denis McDonald with William age 17.  What do you think - like you, I can't find them after that.  Maybe he went back to Ireland /died?

What next?
Cheers  Jules

[osprey]

I've just noticed a little something on Genuki - the hundred of Llangyfelach was made up of three parishes - Llangyfelach, Llangwig and Llansamlet, so perhaps the place of birth isn't a deal breaker. I'm still worried about the occupations, though. People might exaggerate occupations, but railway labourer seems a step down from a copperman to me. I was wondering if there was a slump in the copper industry in Swansea in the early sixties or perhaps I'm wrong and railway labourers were paid more. perhaps he had an accident and had to change his job.

What would be good would be some other sort of certificate with William's father on it. His marriage would be pre general registration, but would be in the parish records as should the baptisms of some of the children at least. Glamorgan Family History Soc will have the baptisms in booklet or cd form or will do look-ups for members. Have you found marriages for any of the sisters from the family you found? Getting one of those certs might help if it also has John as the father. Was William's birth registered and do you have the certificate? Finding any of the McDonald family on a later census might help if it leads you to another William, but if they have all vanished, it looks like the family might have moved again - adult sons might have stayed behind though.

I'll have another look at the census records, but I'm in work all weekend so it won't be for a day or two. 

modified typo in genuki - oops!

[osprey]

just had a look on Freebmd and found these births registered in Swansea

June qtr 1839 Dianah McDonald vol 26 pg 459
Dec qtr 1841   William MacDonald vol 26 pg 44
June qtr 1848  Abigail Mackdonald vol 26 pg 579

[osprey]

I've had some time today to search for the McDonalds - no luck! There's a possible sighting of John on the US census in 1880. I've tries more than one source of census and William is the only one that I can find in Glamorgan after 1861. There are possible marriages for some of the children on Freebmd but still can't see them on any later census entries.

But, I think I've found the explanation for this in the death register index
Dec qtr 1862 Dennis MacDonald Swansea vol 11a pg 281
 
Also noticed that there must have been 2 different daughters called Ann/e and found the death of the first one June qtr 1851 Swansea vol 26 pg 411. There really aren't very many McDonalds or variants in the Swansea area at that time and I'm coming round to thinking that it must be the same family, mainly because William seems to be the only William McDonald born in Wales 1841ish.
It's not certain, but it might be worth getting some more certificates to confirm or otherwise name and jobs. Den(n)is's death certificate might say railway labourer.
Just had a thought about the marriage cert - could the brother's name been put in instead of the father's? As William was of age, there was no need for permission and anyway the man we hope was his father was already dead. Not having the father marked as deceased isn't a worry - the groom was of age, father didn't need to give permission. Were there any McDonald witnesses on the cert, or any female names that might have been a married sister? I would have said to check mariage records at church to double check father's name, but they were married in registry office - no idea how you could check that register.

hope you had decent weather for camping!

[jstomlin]

Hiya
Thx for all the help - much appreciated!
I to am coming to the same conclusions - i've searched every BMD version of Mc and Mac - Donald, Donal, Donel, Donale, Donnell etc and had the same results for William as you - ie - only one William MacDonald!
I think I'll go for the William birth cert (get the name of the mother - there is a Dennis McDonnell marrying mary Humphrey in 11 Jun 1834 on IGI).  It may even come up with Dennis John hopefully!
Do you think it's worth going for the Dennis death cert?
On the marriage cert, Thomas Thomas (brides dad) and Mary Ann Ball were the witnesses.  Can't see any Mary Ann daughters on either side?
The Dennis / John thing is intriguing - is there a John McDonald on the 1861 or 1871 census who is a railway labourer?  If not, I guess it will remain one of those loose ends?  BTW, there is a John McDonald death in Swansea in Dec 1908, age 65, which fits with John on the 1851 census.
Cheers  Jules

[osprey]

The only other John I can see is McDowell/McDonnell and is a labourer but much too young to be William's father.
I'd spotted that marriage and and thought it looked ok - was in Cadoxton, possibly? I think it would be worth getting the death certificate to see the occupation and who registered it - possibly a job for the older son? Unless it was sudden, of course. But, it does seem strange that he was a copper smelter in 1861, died in late 1862 and on Wm's marriage cert in 1864 was a railway labourer - could be he had something that meant he had to leave the copper works and work outdoors?
If that is 'your' John's death in 1905, where on earth has he been in the meantime?